[F-100]

Head up for those who might want to buy a  Panasonic SA-XR45S. You can get if from Amazon for $270 (after $50 off) + free shipping.

See more detail at Amazon.com:
----------------
Special Offer: This product qualifies! Buy $250 or more of electronics offered by Amazon.com and get a promotional certificate for $50 off your next Amazon.com purchase. Here's how (restrictions apply). Offer ends October 19, 2003.

[Brad]

The 45 has an additional optical input, a 'deluxe' remote, 'multi-source remaster processing'.   Power ratings are the same on the highly detailed Panny website.

You could also buy something else from Amazon for $19 to get the $50 credit on the '25.

[_scotty_]

O.K. I have a simple/stupid question:

Could you combine the 6 channels within the Pannys to input 2 channels and output 2 channels to achieve 3 times the output for power hungry speakers?

No way that I can see. For difficult loads ,the SONY receivers and the SONY all in one units with higher power ratings should be looked at. This is an entry level piece with very good performance and great bang for the buck but it does not have an inexhaustable power supply. Great, big, inefficient, audiophile speakers with miserable excuses for impedance curves are probably not the best match for it.

[clyde]

I have a couple of things to add to this thread.

First, since there is only a 5.1 direct input on both the XR25 and XR45, only 5 amplifier channels would be usable with analog inputs.  The 6th channel would be active with DD EX and DTS ES digital sources.

Regarding 24/96, I was able to play the Chesky Super Audio sampler (24/96 PCM DVD) using the digital input on my XR25.  My DVD player displayed 24/96 output mode and since the TI chip set used in the XR25 supports 24/96 I would assume that all the bits were being processed.  It certainly sounded as good as my DVD-Audio discs.

[_scotty_]

I have a couple of things to add to this thread.

First, since there is only a 5.1 direct input on both the XR25 and XR45, only 5 amplifier channels would be usable with analog inputs.  The 6th channel would be active with DD EX and DTS ES digital sources.

Regarding 24/96, I was able to play the Chesky Super Audio sampler (24/96 PCM DVD) using the digital input on my XR25.  My DVD player displayed 24/96 output mode and since the TI chip set used in the XR25 supports 24/96 I would assume that all the bits were being processed.  It certainly sounded as good as my DVD-Audio discs.

Thank You for the info. How does it sound compared to anything else
you have compared it to.

[clyde]

Scotty,

My reference amp is an engineering evaluation unit  of the ICEpower digital amp technology that is the same as used in the $3000 Danish eAR amp frequently mentioned in this forum.  Supposedly the eAR has been tweeked with additional filtering and capacitance in the power supply.  To my ears, ICEpower is the best amp I have heard and I've listened to a bunch of them.

In the bass and midrange area the XR25 is very competitive.  Dynamics are outstanding, particularly with digital inputs.  The treble is a bit on the rough side.  I was hoping this would smooth out with break in, but there has been only minor improvement in the week I have had the unit.  It's very good for the price, but not world class.   This may be something that is fixable, since Tact amps use the same technology but don't seem to have this problem.

[_scotty_]

Scotty,

My reference amp is an engineering evaluation unit  of the ICEpower digital amp technology that is the same as used in the $3000 Danish eAR amp frequently mentioned in this forum.  Supposedly the eAR has been tweeked with additional filtering and capacitance in the power supply.  To my ears, ICEpower is the best amp I have heard and I've listened to a bunch of them.

In the bass and midrange area the XR25 is very competitive.  Dynamics are outstanding, particularly with digital inputs.  The tre ...

You may be hearing the powercord or the power from the wall could be a problem. I don't have any high frequency anomalies in my system. My system has been optimized for the energy content in the upper frequencies that a digital source can provide. If the associated cabling has any smearing in the upper frequencies the highs could certainly be objectionable. This maybe a case of cabling incompatibility.
  What kind of power supply did you build for your ICE power modules,
details please.

[Jack Gilvey]

First, since there is only a 5.1 direct input on both the XR25 and XR45, only 5 amplifier channels would be usable with analog inputs. The 6th channel would be active with DD EX and DTS ES digital sources.

 Not sure I understand. There's an analog input for each of the six amp channels, no? Once you're using them, what does the digital input have to do with it?

Regarding 24/96, I was able to play the Chesky Super Audio sampler (24/96 PCM DVD) using the digital input on my XR25. My DVD player displayed 24/96 output mode and since the TI chip set used in the XR25 supports 24/96 I would assume that all the bits were being processed. It certainly sounded as good as my DVD-Audio discs.

  So a direct 24/96 digital input sounded about the same as a two-channel hi-res feed to the analog inputs? Thanks for your observations.

[Monolith]

FYI -

Owner's Manual Link

Panasonic XA-XR25/45 Owner's Manual

[clyde]

Since this is not made clear in the user manual, I'll try once again to explain that the 5.1 direct input, designed for DVD-A and multi channel SACD connection, does not support the rear center amp channel.  The 6th multichannel input only passes through the LFE signal to the line out for subwoofer.  In contrast, the new Sony ES line supports  full 7.1 direct input.

I've had a chance to break in the XR25 some more and upgrade cables as Scotty suggested.  Everything is improved.  Analog input is now hard to differentiate from my ICEpower amp.  The direct digital input at both 44khz and 96khz sounds significantly better than analog input.  This technology is really something special.

[Jack Gilvey]

I'll try once again to explain that the 5.1 direct input, designed for DVD-A and multi channel SACD connection, does not support the rear center amp channel. The 6th multichannel input only passes through the LFE signal to the line out for subwoofer.

 Sorry, after looking at the diagrams again I see what you mean...there's no way to access an input for the back surround.

Analog input is now hard to differentiate from my ICEpower amp. The direct digital input at both 44khz and 96khz sounds significantly better than analog input.

 Wow. So, is it fair to say then that the direct digital input sounds better than the ICEpower (which uses analog inputs)?

[Dmason]

I would have to say, after listening to the fully burned in unit, with upgraded PC (per Scotty,) and go with a high quality digital IC, that the Panasonic 45, within its parameters, is pretty much state of the art, I'd say.

They have swizzed the power ratings to the desirous, and highly marketable, round number of 100wpc @ 6 Ohms, which I figure might be on the order of around 75-80 @ 8Ohms, which is plenty for most applications.

I'm using it with speakers of 91db sensitivity, and this combo rocks! It sounds great. Again, bottom end from the basement, mids are lush,  highs sparkle, transients, dynamics, harmonics, --it's all there, and the Panny makes my inexpensive Value Axiom M40ti floorstanders sound wonderful. extends the low Fq response. It sounds better by far hooked up to my Big Dog speakers, so, I would venture to say that the little Panasonic is the one to beat in its power class, let alone its price class. For an example of dynamics and slam, refer to below....

[JD]

Dmason,

      I am trying to decide if I should keep my Panny XR25, I am impressed with the sound but was wondering if the Sony AVD70 is better.
I would also be nice to have the SACD player with the Sony, but the most important thing is the sound quality. How do they compare?

[Brad]

I pulled the trigger with Amazon on the '25 today.   Added a Terk antenna to get to $255 and my $50 gift certificate.

Should have it in 10 days or so.
I deliberated quite a bit over waiting for the Sony AVD-C700es - love the cosmetics on it and would like an SACD player again.   Oade Bro's will have the Sony in about 3 weeks and have it priced under $800.  A bargain, but not as good a fit for my current budget as the Panasonic.

Thanks to all who have posted.

[someidiot]

First, a brief introduction: I'm not what I'd describe as an audiophile; just one of the middle-ground folks who for many years purchased "upper end" Yamaha and Harmon Kardon gear. Anyway ...

... I received a diminutive xr45 yesterday, and am totally knocked-out by how good it sounds (after just a few hours)  

 Bass is tight and controlled; mids are lush and vocals are believable; upper end is still a little ragged, but better now than yesterday. If everything was such incredible value for money, well ... uhhh, Utopia?

Did get a PC upgrade (per _scotty_), and am using digital inputs only (optics) -- haven't bothered with the analogue inputs, though will have to for DVD-A & SACD. Also got a couple rolls of Colonial 12 gauge, so will be building cables over the weekend (to Stan Warrens recipe). We'll see how much the soundstage opens up over the next few weeks.

Volume at -20dB is more than sufficient in this enormous open-plan 14' ceiling "room" for both audio and HT.  Playing LOTR last night was an education in both sound placement and dynamics (not to mention the total silence when paused).

Thanks _scotty_, dmason, and all others for sharing this great find!

- Kris

[smargo]

someidiot,

Please keep us abreast of the sound every few days if possible. Every one else save for a couple of the guys seems to give one review then you don't hear from them again.

Thanks,
smargo

[Dmason]

Okay, I'll weigh in with a quickie review of the Panasonic after about three weeks of constant ON-ness and quite abit of play;

Currently it is doing double duty as a paper weight on top of the Sony DVP7700 I have feeding it, to its apparent satisfaction. I now have a very short high quality digital cable between the two, (12",) with a dollop of medical grade contact flux to lube up those two happy couples, and it seems to be very happy. Right now I am listening to the Hammond B3 Allstars album, which is very well produced, has alot of punch, with some serious EQ'ing on the bass, drums and organ, with the horns, synths and sisters clearly grooving in the back....brushes can be heard to move in a circular motion from the next room.

Speaking as a keyboardist of some thirty years, (gulp) I can say that the little Panny is getting it wired. My place is jumping right now, and this little rig is in the back room, and I am using some rather inefficient Dynaudio BM6 studio monitors, --no problem-o!--

There seems to be some contention about the Panasonic as a "proper" amplification means, -or whatever, and alot of inablility to assess this absolute gem of a find, within its proper context. I believe Scotty threw down on that qualifier some time ago in his preliminary review, so read up, if there is any confusion out there. Soon someday, someone is going to come up with a balls-out version of the TI chipset, and then you will see a new paradigm. Til the digital revolution irons itself out, all you fence sitters should pony up for a' one of these, and just let it play music. For a look at what it's up against for my attentions, refer to below...

[clyde]

I've had an XR25 running for 3 weeks now.  My ICEpower amp now powers my VMPS subwoofer (quite an improvement over the old subwoofer amp, BTW).  I prefer the direct digital input using the CD layer on my dual layer SACD discs to the SACD layer, which must be played back through analog inputs.  Not quite as smooth, but more detailed.  I also discovered that the 24/96 PCM track on my AIX DVD-audio discs is more transparent direct digital than the regular DVD-audio tracks that also must be played through analog inputs.  The DVD-audio and SACD designers made a big mistake restricting these formats to analog connections.

I have full range ribbon main and rear speakers and everything direct digital is coming through in an incredibly realistic fashion.  I plan to also try the XR45, mainly to see if the depopulated power supply on the XR25 makes a difference.

[someidiot]

someidiot,

Please keep us abreast of the sound every few days if possible. Every one else save for a couple of the guys seems to give one review then you don't hear from them again.

Thanks,
smargo

Certainly; but keep in mind those forthcoming speaker cables are likely to change things rather abruptly.

scotty, clyde, dmason: how hot does your xr25/45 run? I notice that this '45 is rather warm on the top panel, although the fan doesn't kick in  (and there is an "overheat shutdown" circuit in case the fan croaks).

- Kris

[_scotty_]

someidiot, Are you running all 5 ch. in a home theatre setup or just the front two ch. If you are running all 5 how does the sound field and dynamics compare to just running the front only. I can't do this test as I don't have enough room or speakers. I have had the XR25 powered up for almost a month and it might be done breaking in I don't know for sure
it has approximately 600hrs of continous on time and maybe 200hrs of playing something through it. It sounds very musical and still best through its digital inputs. So far no warts have emerged and it doesn't make any funny noises. I asked Stan about how hot the switching power supply seems to run and he said that it could easily average 150degrees with no operational problems at all. This temperature is well with in the safe operation parameters of the type of large MOSFET that is used as the switch. I haven't managed to make the fan turn on even once. The worst thing I could say about the XR 25 is that it is always inoffensive and a little less  real  sounding as a result.  
  Just to stir up controversy I wonder how this unit would compare with a direct digital feed from a transport in sound to a TubeDac or Ack! dAck
fed into it's analogue inputs.This receiver might give these inexpensive
Dacs a real run for the money and might eliminate the need for a less than state of the art Dac in an inexpensive system entirely. At the least it might kill two birds with one stone, the need for good amplification and a DAC. And it might provide a cost effective alternative to seperates at the low end of the high-end. Just some thoughts.  Scotty