[Double Ugly]

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifi4all.dk%2Fforum%2Fforum_posts.asp%3FTID%3D54861&type=text&text=&from=dan&to=eng
There you go.

Mike

That's the same on-line translation site I tried, Mike, thus my "still have no idea what attendees had to say" comment.

It was very amusing to read the translation from Danish to English, it didn't make much sense.

No, it didn't.  Thanks much for your help, Brian. 

Quite a few commented the NuForce as sweet and clean sounding presenting impressingly natural female voices etc.

What comments (if any) aside from Witzel's "coherent" remark were made when the Spectron was in the system?

Thanks.

[lonewolfny42]

Bill C.....

They are going to make a big splash Sunday !

So....how did it go at your audio group meeting ? Thanks...

                              Chris

[billc]

I have been purposefully delaying an update on my initial impressions of the Mini.  I had intended to report the overall comments of the NJ Audio Society group session following our meeting on Feb 24.  I had over 25 visitors who listened attentively and intensely to the Mini's, and the majority of the comments were very positive. 

I received the speakers the Tuesday before the meeting, and worked hard to give the speakers as much playing time as possible before the Sunday meeting.  In the final analysis with respect to that Sunday's listening session, the NJAS listeners concluded that any comments from the listening session would be premature.  The overall sound, coherence, integration, and midrange presentation had evolved significantly between receipt on Tuesday and the Sunday session.  Many listeners Sunday indicated they could hear additional evolution in the sound between the arrival of the first visitors at noon, and the final departures near 8 pm.  So, I decided not to post any extensive comments based on Sunday's event, because most agreed the speakers had not nearly reached their potential yet.  So, that is my explanation and disclaimer, and I am sticking by it!   

As of this weekend, about 18 days after receipt, and after about 50-60 hours of playing time, I estimate that there are at least another 20-40 hours needed on this speaker for it to finally settle into its natural response profile. 

But, I am happy to report on what I am hearing at present.  Which is very exciting.    But I want to stress that my experience is that one should not evaluate these speakers "out of the box" -- to be fairly assessed they need at least 60-80 hours of playing time.  My impressions at present:

1.  Tremendous treble clarity.  Startlingly clear.  Highly revealing of source, both quality and shortcomings.  Upon receipt: Somewhat edgy and out of balance with the midrange.  Now: the high end is still remarkably clear but much less edgy and the midrange is opening up expansively.  Much better balance between mid and treble at present.  And, I strongly expect further evolution in this regard.  But the accuracy and clarity of the treble is simply astonishing.   

2.  Midrange.  Upon receipt: somewhat recessed and peaky.  Slight nasality in vocals.  Now: Incredible evolution is mid-range response.  Very significantly more balanced, more integrated, and a more natural response at present.  Slight nasality has nearly entirely vanished (and I expect this break-in artifact to disappear completely given current development of the speaker.).  My expectation is that the speaker will have a well balanced and very accurate response in another week or two of playing.  The break-in sound issues can be heard most clearly on some vocals; at present with break-in the vocals sound truer to each artists sound.  Note: the very low crossover point of this speaker results in vocal reproduction that is different than most other speakers with more traditional crossover points (2-3KHz), because much of the vocal information is carried by the tweeter, affecting especially female vocal.  As the tweeter is finding it "zone" the response on vocals has opened up to be natural and balanced.

3.  Bass.  I am driving the Mini's with ASL Hurricane monoblock amplifiers (100 watts triode 200 watts pentode), wonderfully modded by Response Audio.  Bass is generally powerful and well reproduced, especially because the low crossover point allows the woofer to focus on low frequencies, and it does not have to cover most of the midrange too.  Driven in pentode mode, at normal to room-filling volumes the bass is strongly present, clear, and well integrated.  Recognizing the limitations, of course, of the woofer size, I am very impressed with the power of the bass reproduction.  [I should probably acknowledge that, that driven very loudly, with lots of NJAS listeners in my room, in triode mode, the woofer was using most of its "long excursion" range.  There was not as much control as desired in triode at high volumes on day 5 of the speaker here.  This is changing.  I find that at normal/live performance (for jazz and classical, not rock) listening levels at present the bass is very balanced and powerful, and well controlled in both triode and pentode.]

4.  Dynamics.  These speakers really seem to like moderate to higher volumes.  Often I play my system quietly in the evening when children are studying.  Dynamics are good at low volumes.  At moderate to high volumes the dynamics are STUNNING.  ["Depends" diaper stunning.  No BS. ]  Macro AND microdynamics are just amazing.  Music jumps out at you from the speaker.  Sometimes you want to duck.  This speaker is closer to live than almost any other that I have heard, and more so than any 2-way speaker I have heard.  It is just AMAZING.  I cannot emphasize this enough.  It was a bit of a surprise to me, because I received the speakers on Tuesday, and played them quietly until Friday, and did not realize the dynamic magic.  When I turned up the volume and sat down, the first big jump in sound energy on the jazz recording I was listening to almost resulted in an "accident". 

At this juncture, I have to admit the NJAS members were right - the speaker needed more break-in, and needs more still.  They were all entranced by the amazing clarity and strong bass, and listened intently for almost an hour before yielding their seats to others in the group.  Most members almost never stay seated that long.  So there definitely was something special going on sound-wise at the group meeting.  But several listeners did detect some closed-up and recessive qualitities that all recognized to be the result of insufficient break-in.  As break-in proceeds the sound of the speaker is very amazing, and very unusual for a 2-way, with respect to dynamics and handling louder volume levels. 

I will report back again in about 2 or 3 weeks, when I think the speakers have reached full break-in.  For the moment, I am having tremendous fun with these speakers, hearing many new sounds on old records and CDs.  And, I think Bob has achieved something quite special with the Mini.  It just took a few weeks of break-in to get to hear ALL the magic appear.   

Bill C

[IronLion]

Thanks for the report billc, its interesting that the tweeter in your impressions has to undergo so much break-in even though the diaphragm itself doesn't move that much, but I guess one has to consider the internal crossover network as well.  Do you by any chance have any photos of the Minis?  I'd love to see them and what finish you chose as well, thanks.  Please let us know how the speakers eventually settle in.  Out of curiosity, with regards to the question of bass output, what size room are you using them in? 

[billc]

IronLion,

I am not sure how to post photo's, but I will figure it out.
They look like the initial post announcing the Mini, from Bob.

Quick replies to your questions:

The finish on my speakers is cherry. The speakers are beautifully finished, and very heavy given their size.  Build quality is excellent.  Mine have bi-wire terminals.

The room they play in is 12' x 25' x 8' high.  Speakers on 12' wall.  A "bright" room acoutically with oak floor, area rug, three windows, two archways.  Acoustic geometry is poor as well.  I need room treatment, big time.  A NJAS member brought some acoustic panels and bass traps to the group session, which helped control reflections, as did the members themselves. 

In my experience, all speakers, including the tweeters, need play time to settle in/exercise.  As does the crossover.

Bill C

[IronLion]

I am not sure how to post photo's, but I will figure it out.
They look like the initial post announcing the Mini, from Bob.

I've seen photos of Salma Hayek before, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see more.  aa  Just trying to see as many perspectives as possible before my own pair arrives.  I usually toss my photos up on Photobucket for hosting then link the URL's here using one of the image buttons when you post a reply or new thread.     

[billc]

IronLion,

Good point, re Salma that is.  I didn't have a picture of her so I hope these links will do. 
They show my cherry finish Timepiece Mini's.

http://picasaweb.google.com/BillCes16/AudioTimepieceMini/photo#5175908048694683570
http://picasaweb.google.com/BillCes16/AudioTimepieceMini/photo#5175908048694683570
http://picasaweb.google.com/BillCes16/AudioTimepieceMini/photo#5175908078759454706

Bill C

[lonewolfny42]

Nice Bill.....






Thanks for the comments and detailed report....and the photo's...

I should probably acknowledge that, that driven very loudly, with lots of NJAS listeners in my room, in triode mode, the woofer was using most of its "long excursion" range.

Thats a "trip" to see that action....pump it up....

Happy listening Bill.....

                             Chris

[RandyH]

Bill, thank you very much for your report on the Minis.  I am interested in these speakers and am curious to read the reviews/observations of owners.  Your observations were tempered by numerous qualifiers where you identified issues that you assume will be corrected by additional break-in.  I hope you will again post a review after the break-in process is completed.  I am curious about the break-in question as I recall the following statement made by Bob... "As I've been saying all along, our stuff doesn't need a lot of break-in"

Thanks
Randy

[Double Ugly]

Bill - Have you tried a high-quality SS amplifier with the Minis?

[bbchem]

  RandyH, you can read my several reviews on both this circle and also on Audiogon. My pair have 200 hours on them , and to my ears, (as I mentioned that Bob had told me that they do not need long break-in he felt.) I now find that at this time period the description that BillC (By the way I am Bill B), was right on, but IMHO, having again owned 30 different highend speakers, these are hands down the most life like and natural that I have had in my home. I really have very little exceptions if at all, and again this is relative to what I have had in my home ad Nauseum as you can see. As previously mentioned, people who have background in music have heard them versus my other current three pairs and they unequivocally loved the Minis.

  Regards, Bill

[billc]

Your observations were tempered by numerous qualifiers where you identified issues that you assume will be corrected by additional break-in.

RandyH, I was trying to be fair, accurate, and yet show a very positive enthusiastic reaction.  I did not want to suggest "final" impressions, when the Mini's are still clearly evolving.  Qualifiers should not be interpreted as qualifiers on the quality of this speaker.  I guess I have to ask if it is possible to be as accurate and honest as possible, and be able to come across as very positive, recognizing that no speaker is the best speaker in the world for all listeners.  I fear any hesitation or less than superlative description results in folks thinking a piece of equipment is flawed, when that is absolutely not the case.  These speakers are good.  Very good.

Bill - Have you tried a high-quality SS amplifier with the Minis?

DU, Unfortunately, no I have not had an opportunity to try any SS amps.  I need to reach out to my audio friends at NJ Audio Society, and see if someone is willing to lend me a pair.  Alternatively, perhaps I can bring my speakers to an upcoming monthly meeting.  But the short answer is that I would really like to try some high quality SS amps on the Mini and hear their response.  Bob has stated that the response under SS amps is particularly good with the Mini, and I am eager to hear it! (although I have to admit to really loving my Response-modded Canes).  Still, live and learn.

As previously mentioned, people who have background in music have heard them versus my other current three pairs and they unequivocally loved the Minis.

Bill B, Yes, everyone (generally speaking) in the NJ Audio Society really liked their sound (some have speakers 10x their cost, and were not going to put theirs up for sale, yet... )  Some were tentative at first, and called me later to rave about some specific characteristic: the clarity, the fantastic dynamics, the appearance, etc.   Bob mentioned the same thing to me about needing little break-in, but my experience, and that of the group session was somewhat different.  Perhaps he means they sound good initially, which is true, but they sound far better after break-in.  As I head for your 200 hours of use, I am finding greater and greater pleasure from these speakers.  I only have experience owning about 5 pairs of speakers, but I have listened to many others speakers at Audio Society members homes, and the Mini's are definitely among the best sounding overall, IMHO.  So, d_mn the qualifiers; full speed ahead.  I encourage anyone at, near, and especially above this price point not to miss auditioning these speakers.  You will regret it. 

So, Bill B, I think we very close in our reactions.     

Bill C

[bbchem]

  Billc, I know and respect exactly what you are saying. After all, any opinion is just subjective as any person listening and commenting. I have had speakers up to the $5000 range in my home, but when I lived in New York I went to many Stereophile Shows and many high end dealers.  like most people at the shows, I tend to try and listen to the most expensive speakers first. While some really impressed me, I came across many Stratospheric costing models that didn't float my boat. What I am learing is that everytime I hear a new loudspeaker, my first instinct is to pick it apart and isolate what I really find lacking before I get into what I like. This is the sickness we (me) inherited when delving into the audiophile experience. Anyway, so far the Minis seem to annoy me the least if you will. That is good, very good. I am still loving them after 200 and the improvement if there is making my ears very happy indeed.

Regards, Bill   

[Aether Audio]

Randy H,

I am curious about the break-in question as I recall the following statement made by Bob... "As I've been saying all along, our stuff doesn't need a lot of break-in"

Just a quick note to clarify things here a little.  In the quote above, the word "NEED" is the operative word.  I've heard countless times of speakers "needing" 400+ hours of break-in to start really sounding "good."  That leaves me   "Good" meaning "I don't feel as though I made a mistake in this purchase."  How much better our stuff gets after 60-80-100+ hours of break-in is anybody's guess.  Personally, we can't keep them around here long enough to find out.

So far... nobody has returned a pair, so I guess the "mistake" issue hasn't been an issue... yet.  As far as I'm concerned, if the Minis are as good as the comments from others seem to indicate, starting from "just out of the box" on to continually increasing hours of break-in, then I'd say that's a pretty good testament.  I mean, if they're already "good" out of the box and then keep getting better... well, whaddaya say?

But...one man's "good" is another man's "OK" and even another man's "sucks." (Glad I haven't heard that one yet ) In the end, there's really only one way to know for sure. aa

-Bob

[Bill Baker]

NO.... I'm Bill B.......Bill B, Bill C and another Bill B. I guess I'll just be Bill Baker

 My feelings on break in differ a bit from others. I guess the best way to go about it is to simply state that if there is a particular aspect of a speaker one does not like out of the box, one should give it a bit more time so we don't come to any premature conclusions. Bill C's comments are case in point. Many speakers can sound very good when 'fresh' but can (I believe most do) improve with time.

 By the way Bill C. I have a solid state amp up here now that you are more than welcome to try out if you want to bring your speakers with you on your next trek up. I think I would be as eager to hear the combination as you.

 Glad to hear you are enjoying the Mini's now. Any they look beautiful as well.

[bbchem]

   Ok Bill Baker, you can retain Bill B and I will be W( william ) B 

[billc]

Well, I am glad to see we are finally getting this identity stuff sorted out!!!   

This thread is getting more and more entertaining, er, confusing.  Good thing there is some content mixed in.   

Bill C hereby sends his apologies to Bill Baker for using Bill B to refer Will C.  Never happen again.  If I remember.   

Thank you, thread posters, for the replies, expanded discussion, and "who's on first" routine.  aa

Bill C  (really)

[Bill Baker]

Ok Bill Baker, you can retain Bill B and I will be W( william ) B

Nah, I was just picking on ya. You can call me whatever you want as long as it doesn't violate the obscenity rules of Audio Circle

[groovybassist]

Bill C:

I noticed the nasality in my Mini's early on as well.  I don't know if this is the case with your setup or not, but I've found it was a result of how close I was sitting to the wall behind me.  Once I moved into the room a bit more, the problem was gone.  I'll admit it does take a bit of time to get used to the presentation of a speaker with such a low crossover point after spending a lot of years with speakers whose  crossovers are in the 2-3khz region.  I guess having a tweeter produce sounds that normally come from a woofer takes some adjustment.  I'm there now though!  I appreciate reading your candid feedback, so keep it coming.  Enjoy.

-Mike

[jhm731]

So far... nobody has returned a pair, so I guess the "mistake" issue hasn't been an issue... yet. 

Is there a money back guarantee on your speakers?

Have you measured the speakers fresh out the box and with 60-80-100+ hours of break-in to see if there's any difference?