[Images]

I posted on January 1st in Audio Central about Orchestral Speakers.  I got an 11 page thread as a reply.  I certainly don't want to repeat that here.  I also would expect there, understandably, would be a strong allegiance to SP Tech products in this Circle.  From everything I have been able to gather, that allegiance is well earned. 

The Minis seem to have a helluava lot of advocates.  Perhaps I should be one also.  They are in my price range.  (I would like to stay under $4K, if possible.)  My reluctance to purchase a pair of these is prompted by my listening habits.  I listen mostly to orchestral music.  My bias may well stem from ignorance, but it just seems counter intuitive that a quite small two-way monitor can produce a satisfying rendering of a symphony.  Believe me, I would love to be wrong about this, and I hope you "advocates" can persuade me that I am.

To my mind, at this point, a full scale orchestra would be best rendered by a dipole, or a large three-way, a line array, or some type of panel speaker.  All have one thing in common, a transducer that has a lot of surface area.  Better than a decade ago I was pleased with a couple of Acarian Alon models I had.  Here the M & T were open baffles and the woof was a 10"er in a sealed box.  This combination of dipole upstairs with acoustic suspension downstairs  satisfied me.  Arguably, this design was made noteable with the Dahlquist line. There are similar designs now that I would likely purchase, if it weren't for you "SP advocates."   For grins, here are a couple examples:
Vandersteen 3a Sigs (used)
Nola Viper II (used)
Nomad Ronin ($1k over budget)

Your comments are very much welcome.  Oh, to do a more apples to apples comparison, there is the ATC SCM 19 Passivve.  This is another studio monitor that has been praised for its accuracy. It is, however, $1K more expensive than the SP Minis.  Again, comments are very much welcome and invited. 

 

[Double Ugly]

I'm sure some of the Mini owners will pipe up, but I'd like to take a stab at addressing your concern about 2-ways.

I own two pair of Timepieces, the 2.0s (original design) and 2.1s.  Both are virtually identical to the Timepiece Mini, save for a slightly larger box and 1" larger woofer.  IMO and that of my wife, both pair are quite capable of "rendering a symphony."  Imaging, soundstage width and depth are superb, and the subtle nuances, shadings and idiosyncrasies of the various instruments is uncanny.

You want to hear layer upon layer, to have every ounce of information the program material has to offer?  Get a pair of 2-way SP Technology speakers.

They embody all the goodness found in the Revelations that caused Jim Merod to tear-up¹ while listening to one of his own label's recordings, sans for the bass emitted from the proprietary T-line bass module found only on the Revelations.  Considering Merod's experience, penchant for hating speakers and his reaction to hearing a pair of SP Technology speakers for the first time, I think Bob's little 2-ways must be something a cut above. 

Here's a link to Merod's comments about the 2-way Revelations - Link

FWIW, Bob told me the biggest difference he noticed with the Minis is how completely they disappear, presumably due to the smaller front panel.

Jim Merod, flanked by buddies Greg Weaver (l) and Steve McCormack (r). 


I spoke with Steve at last year's RMAF, and he told me he wants a pair of Bob's speakers, too.  I didn't know that, but apparently he'd already spoken with Bob about it.

¹ See the paragraph beneath the next-to-last picture on this page.

[Russell Dawkins]

I have not had the pleasure of hearing the minis, but do own the Timepieces (2.1s).

Reading between the lines of what those who have heard both the TPs and the minis have said, I would make an educated guess that the minis would mate easily and effectively with a quality subwoofer like, in my case, a pair of old 10" passive Hsus.

The mating of satellite and sub can be impossible to pull off properly more often than not, in my experience, but the mating of this sub with my TPs was very easy. My TPs are running full range and the sub is crossed in at 35Hz.

The improvement is subtle but worthwhile.

I don't imagine the 10 Hz higher f3 of the mini will make much difference to this scenario, although I have yet to hear of anyone using a sub with them yet.

Of course, there aren't many minis out there yet, so I guess this speculation may be a little premature.

I imagine this could be a system both very unobtrusive visually and very sweet sonically, and fully up to the task of realistic portrayal of the large orchestra. And just under $4000 with stereo Hsu subs.

[bhobba]

My reluctance to purchase a pair of these is prompted by my listening habits.  I listen mostly to orchestral music.  My bias may well stem from ignorance, but it just seems counter intuitive that a quite small two-way monitor can produce a satisfying rendering of a symphony.  Believe me, I would love to be wrong about this, and I hope you "advocates" can persuade me that I am.

Regardless of what type of music you like the goal of the speaker is to accurately reproduce what it is fed.  In the opinion of many experts, guys like Jim Merod who has heard an ungodly number of speakers in his time, all SP speakers, the mini included, are amongst the most accurate speakers on the planet regardless of type or cost.  They ruthlessly reproduce whatever they are fed regardless of if it is classical, jazz, pop, or whatever.  These speakers can handle the most delegate orchestral passages to the loudest crescendos with equal aplomb.  In fact their dynamic range is pretty much unequalled.

The best speakers are not designed to reproduce classical music, or jazz, or etc etc.  They are designed to accurately reproduce whatever they are fed regardless of type.  If deep bass is a concern that is easily fixed by a subwoofer.  IMHO however, based on the comments of those that have heard the mini, you probably will be satisfied without one.  As Russell pointed the effect of a subwoofer can be rather subtle.  I used to have one.  My friend called it the dunny speaker.  You really didn't hear it when it was engaged - you mostly felt in the dunny.

All the best in your search.  I do however believe you will be be very happy with the Minis if you decide to get them.

Thanks
Bill

[bbchem]

Let me be the first Mini owner to respond. Not to rehash, but having now 33 different pair of loudspeakers in my Audio Life, of all makes models and shapes and forms from DBX Soundfield Tens, to Definitive tech Bipolar, to Apogee Slant 6 and two pair of Martin Logan CLS to Magnepan 1.6 to three different Single driver to several floor standers etc you get the picture. I am most interested in Jazz and Soft Rock etc, but the other day I wanted to hear Mussorgsky's Pictures at an exhibition and Night on Bald Mountain. I have been pumping up the volume to Wife ungodly levels to see and feel what the Minis can handle. As stated above, the sheer crystal clear dynamics of these large monitors is no different than any floorstander I have owned, except they disappear which I love. They do not flinch with powerful passages such a MPAAE above. There are very few monitors out there that can be a grand compromise between monitor and floorstander and the Minis do that in spades. Lifelike music is lifelike music regardless of size, shape form. Although feel compelled to use a subwoofer with all of my speakers, A Velodyne, I tested the minis down to usable 30Hz!! This maybe enough as the sub adds some undertones and subsonic feelings. I can't believe that anythin Orchestral would not sound fabulous to anyone.
 

[BrianM]

I'll second (or third) the notion that a 2-way with an F3 of 40Hz is enough to render orchestral music very well, and that a subwoofer should be considered optional, especially in small- or medium-sized rooms.  In-room response will be in the low 30s, and yes, smaller speakers tend to disappear better.  Based on their rep the Minis would be on my very short list of potential upgrades from what I have now, and I listen to a heck of a lot of orchestral music.  With my speakers (same F3) I certainly feel an orchestral bass drum in my floor and my chest but they don't go as far as actually shaking the floor or making my heart skip a beat.  And the Minis could certainly have more solid bass than that.

[Aether Audio]

Images,

I'm hoping a few more of our owners will chime in and give you their impressions.  Except for bass extension ((and added power handling (the 2 woofer models), which is almost ludicrous for home use))... virtually all of our models sound the same.  Yes, there are slight improvements in maybe midrange resolution with the bigger models, but then that's at the sacrifice of the Minis incredible imaging abilities.  As far as dynamics goes (needed for classical music), for all practical purposes all of our models are essentially unlimited in that regard. 

My point is that although I could give you all kinds of technical reasons why the Minis would work for you, nothing beats first hand experience.  Since there aren't a lot of Mini owners out there yet but there are quite a few owners of all the other models, I thought their input might help.  Seeing that all models are more alike than not, the opinions of the other model owners carry more weight than you might otherwise suspect.  Basically, just subtract the sub-35Hz performance from their comments and you will have pretty much what the Minis will give you - with "maybe" a little better imaging to boot.

Guys,

Thanks for jumping on board here.  Bob's about run out of steam for this session.  I've been at home yesterday and today suffering from the tail end of the flu and this is the first I've felt well enough to write.  Sorry for my delays in getting back to you all with your e-mails and PMs.  As I feel better later on today I'll try to get caught up.

I knew it was just a matter of time.   The last time I tried burning the candle at both ends like this was getting ready for CES2005... and it caught up with me then too.  I was sick as a frick'n dog the whole trip to Vegas and back - thought I was gonna die.  It ain't that bad this time but still... 2 lousy days out of my schedule and one of you guys that are next in line waiting for your stuff ends up "getting sick" right along with me.  Sorry.

-Bob

[ted_b]

As a new Revelation MR-1 Mk III owner (the ones with the external Mundorf crossovers) I'll simply echo what the great jazz recording engineer Jim Merod said about "their sheer nakedness".  The SP Tech speakers are designed and built for complete musical accuracy.  They hide nothing in the signal chain, hide nothing in the recording, and in my case seem to have unlimited bandwidth capabilities.  The macrodynamics are the first thing to hit you (literally) and when listening to orchestral music it is this aspect that makes SP Tech's design a perfect match for full Orchestra venue-shifting (the ability to move from Severance Hall to my home theater without missing much).  Tivo does time-shifting.  SP Tech does recording venue-shifting. 

The above comments are with my caveats that my Revelations are the largest of the current SP Tech family, and the comments come from a pair of speakers that still need 300+ hours of break in for true due diligence.  If you can find large percentages of these dynamics in a smaller footprint, with imaging that rivals my Sasons, then you have quite a frickin transducer (DU likes that word).   

[Double Ugly]

... frickin transducer (DU likes that word).   

 

Dadgummit, yes, I do! 

[lonewolfny42]

Bob.....

I hope you feel better soon....

[groovybassist]

Images:

I've had the Mini's for 4 or 5 weeks now, so I figured I'd chime in.  In terms of imaging, separation of instruments, timbre, transient speed and dynamics, I personally think the Mini's do a great job with orchestral music.  One thing they really excel at in my eyes is conveying the emotion of the performance and intent of the performers, which to me are crucial when listening to an orchestra.  I drive my Mini's with a Naim Nait5i - just 50W/channel - and I have no problem driving them to very loud levels very cleanly.

Having said all that, I have to ask what you mean by a "full scale" orchestra?  Do you want to reproduce a realistic rendition of a full symphony orchestra during the loudest crescendos?  Do you want the tympani to hit you in the chest?  Or, are you looking for a presentation that conveys all of that emotion at a more reasonable volume level?  If you're looking for the latter, I think you'd be delighted with the Mini's.  If you want the former, I think you'd need a tremendous amount of horsepower to get there with the Mini's and it might be beneficial to look higher up the SP Tech line if you can swing it.  This isn't a criticism of the Mini, just a recognition that you need to move a lot of air to realistically reproduce a full orchestra.  Hope this helps.

-Mike 

[ooheadsoo]

I think that it's within spec for the minis to reach that kind of SPL with good linearity, but you will need some power - not as much as you would with the Timepieces, though, which is a good thing.

[phoenix_rising]

Your comments are very much welcome.  Oh, to do a more apples to apples comparison, there is the ATC SCM 19 Passivve.  This is another studio monitor that has been praised for its accuracy. It is, however, $1K more expensive than the SP Minis.  Again, comments are very much welcome and invited. 

 

Groovy has the right of it. In order to produce a full orchestral sound you need to be able to move a lot of air the same applies in home theater. If you wanted to use the mini's you would have to do as I am doing which is a compromise and use stereo subs and cross them higher. Which subs you get will determine how high you cross them but it would not be as seamless as a continuim or revelation.

FYI I have ordered 5 mini's for my theater (not received them yet) and I will be pairing them with 2 15" rythmik subs. I intend to cross the mini's at 60hz for music and 80hz for Home theater. This should relieve enough duties from the mini to allow them to play the 110db peaks that happen in home theater and I would suspect that the same would apply to orchestral music which is less demanding from an air movement standpoint. Note that this will be at a cost in the 80-800hz region as being a single driver the louder it plays the higher the distortion level, the tweeter should be able to handle the swings with ease. I spent a year researching speakers and really wanted a waveguide based speaker with a low cross over point, the benefits of a waveguide for music and home theater are huge IMHO this combined with transmission line bass which I IMO is the best bass out there for boxed speakers (not as good as open baffle, but who has room for 8 15" drivers in their room) and you have one hell of  monitor.

Hopefully that gives you a reasonable feel for the issues and how someone else intends to address them.

phoenix

[Images]

...One thing they really excel at in my eyes is conveying the emotion of the performance and intent of the performers, which to me are crucial when listening to an orchestra.  I drive my Mini's with a Naim Nait5i - just 50W/channel - and I have no problem driving them to very loud levels very cleanly.

I am using Channel Islands D100 mono blocs w/ a Mod Wright SWL 9.0SE.  It appears I will have enough power.  I also could not agree with you more about the emotional content of the music.  FWIW, I am of the school that contends music is the language of emotion.  This is how it is that music can transcend all political borders and most cultural boundaries. 

I have to ask what you mean by a "full scale" orchestra?  Do you want to reproduce a realistic rendition of a full symphony orchestra during the loudest crescendos?  Do you want the tympani to hit you in the chest?  Or, are you looking for a presentation that conveys all of that emotion at a more reasonable volume level?

I suspect that if I reproduced orchestral crescendos at the same SPLs as they are heard in the concert hall, but in my condo, my neighbors would be less than grateful.  No, I am seeking an articulate presentation of the live event that has the ability to similarly effect me as the actual concert hall event.   It is not the actual staged production, but rather the convincing reproduction of the event that I seek to place in my living room.

Now here is my dilemma.  One of the first pair of speakers I had in the late 60s / early 70s was a second-hand two-way JBL monitor that I got from some friends of mine that worked at a local, small, recording studio.  I liked them just fine.  Then a few months later I heard this speaker's big brother, which was a step up to a  three-way version of pretty much the same monitor.  It sounded much fuller or richer.  Maybe it was just because the three-way had more LF content that it seemed more full-blown, full-bodied, or just plain full.    In any case, it was more satisfying and allowed me to better connect to the music.  I might still be carrying around this 30+ year notion that a three-way design is going to reproduce  a richer / fuller sound.

I have had little experience with subwoofers, so I can't say if this "fullnmess" is just a function of LF content, or not.  I do know that my BESL series 4.5s, given enough current and a good signal, are giving me ample extension down to 42 or so.  And yet, I still know that a fuller sound is available.  I don't know how to describe it.  I remember the first time I went to Europe (1970) and I ordered cafe au lait.   I remember thinking that this was how coffee should taste.  I don't think I've had any Folger's Crystals (do they still refer to instant coffee as Crystals?) since.  What the point?  The French coffee was to American instant as the JBL three-way was to the JBL  two-way. 

NOW, I am being advised to disregard that notion and invest in a two-way monitor.  The question is, will the sound be full enough?  And I know you can't answer that too well 'cause I have defined "fuller" as sounding like Cafe au lait tastes.  Go figure.

Well, because of my limited auditioning opportunities in my remote location, I may just have to do some hit or miss shopping, which could make FedEx stock more valuable.  I could do this.  Buy the Timepiece Minis.  If I don't like them, well it sure seems like I would have no trouble selling them agian in a few weeks. 

As always, your thoughts are most welcome.     

[phoenix_rising]

Hi Images,

I think that owners of the Timepieces are more than anything after accuracy, in an attempt to reproduce the live event as closely as possible. I have had three way designs before one of the best in fact Meridian 5500 and yes it had dynamics and great bass. I believe that I will achieve the same results by using stereo subs with the mini's.

If you goal is to reproduce music accurately then the TimePiece should satisfy, adding subs will guarantee the full frequency spectrum is covered. If you are after a particular type of sound then you should listen to a large number of speakers until you find the sound you are after.

Personally after having heard and owned a lot of high end speakers I can say this. They all had their quirks, eventually the quirk annoyed because they did not let me escape i.e. they did not paint an accurate enough picture for me to sit back and believe I was there, I found this particularly important not just for music but movies as well. If you get a very accurate set of speakers the only major limit is the quality of the recording and upstream gear.

With speakers with a particular sound (or quirk as I call it) some things sound great and others so so, eventually I believe you will tire of them and change. That is why so many Audiophiles keep changing speakers, looking for the one speaker that will faithfully recreate all aspects of sound to let them escape.

Good luck in your search, I would wait for a few more Mini's to get out there and hopefully someone within driving distance will allow you to audition some.

Phoenix

[Double Ugly]

I have had little experience with subwoofers, so I can't say if this "fullnmess" is just a function of LF content, or not. 

I *think* I know whereof you speak.  If I'm right, a couple of Timepiece Minis and the addition of an Infra-Wave sub (Bob's proprietary T-line design) will be just the ticket, and I suspect you could secure the trio (aka, the ministers of music truth ) for at or slightly less than your desired budget cap.

I don't know how it compares to an infinite baffle sub design (never heard one, nor have I been in a listening room large enough for one), but IME, Bob's T-line design is far and away the best, most tuneful, most accurate bass I've ever heard.  The first time I heard it is the first - and only - time in my music-listening life my jaw literally went slack.  It also marked the the second time I said to myself, "so THAT'S what I've been missing!"

The first time that thought ran through my mind was the first time I heard a pair of SP Technology speakers.  I guess Dr. Merod and I have something in common, though I did manage to avoid tearing-up. 

FWIW, I suspect those who've heard the Revelations will confirm my assessment of Bob's T-line bass, as well as the massive amounts of air it moves. 

You want it all, and want it now?  Either get the Revelations (or Revelations Grand Masters) for BIG $$$, or arrange for a pair of Timepiece Minis and an Infra-Wave sub.  If what you've written is an accurate reflection of your sonic desires, I can't imagine you won't be thrilled by the results for years to come.  If you can stand to have a little less than full-range orchestral output (i.e., your hair won't be blown back), get the Minis first and consider supplementing the presentation with an Infra-Wave at a later date.

That said, I feel relatively certain the "fullness" of which you speak will only be fully achieved by adding the Infra-Wave to the equation.  I'm also certain the Minis will surprise you with their output, but even with Bob's seemingly physics-defying designs, you can expect only so much from the Minis.

[phoenix_rising]

I don't know how it compares to an infinite baffle sub design (never heard one, nor have I been in a listening room large enough for one), but IME, Bob's T-line design is far and away the best, most tuneful, most accurate bass I've ever heard.  The first time I heard it is the first - and only - time in my music-listening life my jaw literally went slack.  It also marked the the second time I said to myself, "so THAT'S what I've been missing!"

DU

I have heard both and if you get a chance it is well worth the listen. IB bass is the best bass I have ever heard, out of boxed speakers Transmission line is also unquestionably the best bass I have heard. IMHO of course. If you own your own home and your wife will let to cut a hole in your ceiling you could mount one in your roof space and that paired with the mini's would be spectacular. They are also relatively inexpensive and simple to build as well.

For those interested in building one here is a link to the cult of the infinitely baffled:
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/

Phoenix

[Double Ugly]

If you own your own home and your wife will let to cut a hole in your ceiling you could mount one in your roof space and that paired with the mini's would be spectacular. They are also relatively inexpensive and simple to build as well.

I do, though since I'd prefer to sell this home and build the one I really want, I'm not sure installing an IB would be a worthwhile endeavor.

On the other hand, it isn't as though we couldn't reverse it prior to the sale. 

Hmmm... ultimately, I think I need to hear an IB bass before I could be properly motivated to cut holes in my ceiling.  It isn't that I doubt you, phoenix, but we're talking about a leap of faith of biblical proportions... you know? 

PS - When did you hear Bob's T-line?

[phoenix_rising]

I do, though since I'd prefer to sell this home and build the one I really want, I'm not sure installing an IB would be a worthwhile endeavor.

On the other hand, it isn't as though we couldn't reverse it prior to the sale. 

Hmmm... ultimately, I think I need to hear an IB bass before I could be properly motivated to cut holes in my ceiling.  It isn't that I doubt you, phoenix, but we're talking about a leap of faith of biblical proportions... you know? 

PS - When did you hear Bob's T-line?

Hi DU,

I would ask on the forum whether there is a member near you with an IB that you could go and listen too, they are a pretty friendly bunch and yes I would definitely listen first before punching holes in the wall. The sound to me at least was simply undistorted and real. The dynamics it could handle were stunning.

I have not heard Bob's TLine but I have heard TLines from IPL and GR-Research both of which had bass that satisfied me and far better bass than any ported enclosure I have heard. I am sure Bob's design will meet or exceed the bass from those two designs so either way I will be a happy camper.

Phoenix

[Double Ugly]

I have not heard Bob's TLine but I have heard TLines from IPL and GR-Research both of which had bass that satisfied me and far better bass than any ported enclosure I have heard. I am sure Bob's design will meet or exceed the bass from those two designs so either way I will be a happy camper.

I see.

I asked because, although I've heard a lot of different bass-producing mechanisms, I've not personally heard another source - be it T-line, separate sub or 'conventional' arrangement - that has produced the same kind of realism I hear from Bob's proprietary T-line. 

I was a little hesitant to say much about it for a while after hearing it for the first time; I thought I might be alone in my assessment.  But now several others have heard it, too, and have expressed very similar sentiments.  Consequently, I feel more comfortable describing it in terms more closely aligned with how I really feel.

I live in a rather remote location, so finding an IB set-up within a few hundred miles will likely prove difficult.  Nevertheless, I will certainly avail myself of the first opportunity that pops up.  Till then, I am wholly satisfied that Bob's T-line is unlike any other I've heard, and that it produces the best, most articulate bass with which I have first-hand experience.  As I've said before, hearing it for the first time was the first - and only - time in my music-loving life that my lower jaw literally went slack.

IMHO, a Timepiece Mini/Infra-Wave sub arrangement would be absolutely killer... especially for the $$$ involved, but even more importantly, irrespective of the $$$ involved.  Take the best bass I've ever heard with significant strength into the mid-teens, and now combine it with the openness, clarity and tonal accuracy of the 'standard' SP Tech design... good stuff, my friend!