[lcrim]

I got up today and swapped the Trackmaster II back onto the tonearm of my Technics 1200   Reset all the settings on the arm and replugged the interconnects on the back of the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section.  Started picking up a radio station which vanished when all the IC's were properly home.
I've been on a strict diet of LOMC's for over a year and was just stunned and chagrined by what I heard.  Top to bottom cohesive music.  The zingy, leading edge harshness which I didn't realize was there was gone.  There may be just a bit missing at the frequency extremes but the entire midrange is super.  Voices are terrific.  I've been listening all day.  Swapped the Glider back in for a short time and the hardness returned so back in went Kevin's MM and the music returned.  The Glider tracks better but the Trackmaster II is very good too.
I've made numerous changes since I last listened to this cartridge.  I think the Music Reference EM7 SET amp/Omega Compact Hemp combo weren't yet purchased.  The arm has had the Cardas rewire and the Isoplatmat and Herbies mat added.  The other thing is that I had been using the AntiCables speaker cables for about a year and switched to the DIY White Lightning Moonshine speaker cables described here http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html
which I tried to bring to folk's attention in Cheap Tweaks but it got overlooked.  These are exceptional speaker cables for a very small cost.  Highly recommended and a huge positive addition.
Both as a result of the speaker cables and having rediscovered a great MM cartridge, my system is sounding terrific.  I may try LOMC again with a SUT and a more luxe cartridge but I can't get enough of this setup at present.
So John and others take your shots.  I deserve it.

[giantsteps]

I got up today and swapped the Trackmaster II back onto the tonearm of my Technics 1200   Reset all the settings on the arm and replugged the interconnects on the back of the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section.  Started picking up a radio station which vanished when all the IC's were properly home.
I've been on a strict diet of LOMC's for over a year and was just stunned and chagrined by what I heard.  Top to bottom cohesive music.  The zingy, leading edge harshness which I didn't realize was there was gone.  There may be just a bit missing at the frequency extremes but the entire midrange is super.  Voices are terrific.  I've been listening all day.  Swapped the Glider back in for a short time and the hardness returned so back in went Kevin's MM and the music returned.  The Glider tracks better but the Trackmaster II is very good too.
I've made numerous changes since I last listened to this cartridge.  I think the Music Reference EM7 SET amp/Omega Compact Hemp combo weren't yet purchased.  The arm has had the Cardas rewire and the Isoplatmat and Herbies mat added.  The other thing is that I had been using the AntiCables speaker cables for about a year and switched to the DIY White Lightning Moonshine speaker cables described here http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html
which I tried to bring to folk's attention in Cheap Tweaks but it got overlooked.  These are exceptional speaker cables for a very small cost.  Highly recommended and a huge positive addition.
Both as a result of the speaker cables and having rediscovered a great MM cartridge, my system is sounding terrific.  I may try LOMC again with a SUT and a more luxe cartridge but I can't get enough of this setup at present.
So John and others take your shots.  I deserve it.

Have you ever tried Home Depot extension cords( as per Absolute Sound) as speaker cables?

[lcrim]

giantsteps:
A number have made this suggestion as well as innumerable permutations of CAT5 which I have tried and the referenced article from 6moons writer Jeff Day is the first DIY recipe I've tried which actually exceeds expectations.  The extension cord from Wood cost me $7.88 at my local WalMart and I went back after trying it to score some more for friends and it was all gone.

[TheChairGuy]

Larry,

Please - no shot at all - we all go astray 

Really, it may be 50% cartridge type and 50% measly cartridge output you are experiencing.

One is really asking 0.4mv of a LOMC to do a lot......in your Technics arm you have two solder connections in your headshell wiring alone.  That runs to dissimilar metal pins in your tonearm end.  On the inner side of your tonearm are the tonearm wiring again soldered in place.....that this terminates in rca's at the back of your table.  Then, you connect your interconnect from there to your phono stage rca inputs.....THEN an interconnect from your phono stage to the line level rca's of your preamp.

0.4mv is so meager to begin with...asking it to do all of the above is never gonna' result is a solid signal.

Your Trackmaster is 3-5mv - some 10x more voltage pushing thru.  You've got a greater chance of getting the signal thru that mess in a larger chunk.

Vinyl is so complicated to begin with (you need to equalize and boost the signal in your phono preamp), when you add other complicated pieces, you have little hope to hear a natural sounding signal. 

One (not solely) of the reasons I wanted to try the Technics/Origin Live armboard/Rega 250 was because it is point-to-point.  The Rega arm isn't demonstrably better than the stock Technics one....but it has one continuous length of wire within.  It is basically and interconnect within the tonearm...and in my system...connects directly to the preamp (with integrated phono stage).  It sounds pure and strong because it is, relative to what is available in vinyl.

I like high voltage (MC or preferably, a Grado MI) and a direct path to the amplication/equalization device...than on to your amps and loudspeakers.

Enjoy the tunes    John

[lcrim]

John:
I tried the MM because Kevin once told me that in time I would come back to MM and he was correct mostly because my LOMC sounded too perfect.  It is very  clean and not in the least attenuated by any signal problems.  It sounded almost digital and somewhat sterile.  It also had a comparative hardness that I didn't notice until I put the Trackmaster II back in place.  The same number of solder joints exist for both and there is plenty of gain for both.   
I haven't given up on LOMC's yet.  I intend to try one of the pricier handmade Japanese artisan cartridges w/ either the Jensen or Lundahl SUT.  Its still a journey and I am still learning.

[TheChairGuy]

Larry,

Your CDP outputs 2 volts (or 2000 millivolts)......or about 5000x the output of your LOMC. 

At least the hi-output Stanton isn't as hobbled with low voltage skimming over all those connections....it's only about 300x less output.  That's the math on it...it's quite substantial when you edify it this way.

Voltage matters - and unless you have a very direct connection with your low voltage cartridge, you'll get less of the original signal by the time it reaches your speakers.  It may sound strong, but your amplifying a lot filler noise added by all of those connections, not just music. That'll make it sound hard...irregardless of any hardness that moving coils may have inherently in their design (please note the word 'may')  

Yes, you give up the low inductance (lower coil noise) and super low DC resistance (more signal exiting the cartridge) of low output cartridges, but when you add all of those connections, you largely negate all of this with a broken transmission line.  The only hope or realizing the advantages of a LO cartridge (whatever the design) is by a very simple path to the phono equalization/amplification device.

John

[lcrim]

I'm sure that your feeling that each and every soldered connection is something of a hurdle to such a low voltage signal from a LOMC has merit.  One possible solution is the Aqvox phono section, which can be configured as a fully balanced current sensing device rather than a voltage sensing piece.  Blakep who occasionally looks in here has one IIRC and perhaps he can fill us in.  From a practical standpoint, because my 1200 MKII has the tonearm rewire w/ the Cardas,  its fairly easy to change to a DIN connector and find a premade DIN to XLR cableset which is available from Cardas among others.  The Aqvox has unfortunately roughly doubled in price in its second iteration.  I'm a bit short of funds currently but this may be a solution as well as my above thoughts on SUT and above $1000 LOMC's which might be substituted by a wooden bodied Denon 103R that we discussed in an earlier thread (w/ input from Blakep).
At present the Trackmaster II and the EE MM phono section are leaving me with good music.

[BobM]

You may find nirvana in a high output MC, like a Dynavector 20X-H (I know I did).

Enjoy,
Bob

[GBB]

Voltage matters - and unless you have a very direct connection with your low voltage cartridge, you'll get less of the original signal by the time it reaches your speakers. 

John,
I think you might be overstating things.  The difference in output level between a MM cartridge and a low output MC isn't that large.  According to http://www.cartridgedb.com/, the Trackmaster II has an output of 7mv.  Something like the Denon DL103, a classic LOMC cartridge has an output of 0.3mv.  That's about a factor of 20x lower which in my opinion isn't that big a deal.  It's not going to suddenly make the contact nonlinearities worse or otherwise cause the kind of unhappiness in sound that Larry is describing.

My experience is that playing around with the loading of a LOMC is the most important thing one can do to dial in the sound.  This gets a bit tweakier than some people would like.  Over the holidays I was visiting a friend and we were tweaking his system.  He was using a Lyra Helikon and we were playing around with some Altec 15095 mic transformers as SUT since I'd read good things about them.  Playing around with loading on the secondary let us dial in the sound but didn't quite excite us.  Then we tried keeping the secondary loaded at 47K ohms and put the main loading on the primary of the transformer.  This made an amazing difference and gave much better sound than the equivalent load on the secondary.
The Eastern Electric phono stage is supposed to have great transformers in it, so it would reward this type of experimentation if you've got the patience.  If you find the sound bright and edgy then you need to try lower resistance loading.  If it sounds too dark without detail then you need higher resistance loading.  And I think the overall sound is better with the transformer secondary lightly loaded and most of the load on the primary.

---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

Gary,

20x less is a lot less.  The output of the Denon is only 5% of the Stanton...or 10% of most other high-output cartridges.

It leaves little left at the end of that 1.3-1.5 mtr or so journey to your line level preamp.  I've introduced unpleasantness/hardness by use of a different rca connector from CDP to preamp.....the use of many barriers and dissimilar metals with meager cartridge signal voltages shouldn't be overlooked.  Using really meager voltages over these formidable hurdles makes the end result potentially even less pleasant.

Lotsa' things matter, but voltage is not one to overlook - and many do 

Ciao, John

[woodsyi]

Larry,

I think we sometimes just appreciate a different sound after listening to a certain set up for a while.  I wouldn't say one carefully planned set up is necessarily better than another -- just different.  I rotate gears around to get a fill of different sound periodically.  Right now I am playing my Benz Micro/Basis/Rega analog frontend, Modwright phonostage, a 300B amp and Omega Superhemps augmented with super tweeter.  This chain is good with small ensembles and vocals.  But, I am sure I will change out to some other configuration later. 

[GBB]

Gary,

20x less is a lot less.  The output of the Denon is only 5% of the Stanton...or 10% of most other high-output cartridges.

Gee John,
Thanks for explaining that 20x less makes the output only 5% - what would I do without you     .

Using some more realistic number, Larry's Benz Glider is rated at an output of 1mv compared to the 7mv of his MM cartridge.  A mere 7x difference or if you prefer, the Glider has only 14% percent of the output of the Trackmaster.

I'm not saying this isn't important.  I've heard the difference good quality RCA jacks and other interconnect can make.  I'm just saying it's probably not the most important thing driving the sound difference.  I maintain that paying attention to the cartridge loading and adding a SUT if it wasn't already in the loop will have the highest probability of getting close to the audio nirvana that we are all chasing.  And my experience is that a good MC cartridge will get you farther if you know how to dial it in.

---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

Gee John,
Thanks for explaining that 20x less makes the output only 5% - what would I do without you     .

---Gary

Ha    I think in % mostly when it comes to these things, so I thought I'd re-edify for my own understanding, and that of others tuning in.

Benz has 0.3 and 0.8mv outputs.....the 0.8mv output is 20% less or 4/5th's as much as you stated ()

14% is nonetheless substantially less.  The EE phono stage has two MC loading options....if anything these are too low for the Benz Medium output as Benz states a preference for 120 or 200 ohms loading...dependent on model.  If anything the Benz would sound sorta' muted (clipped treble), not hard, with the options available to Larry. 

So, the possibility of low voltage climbing thru and over hurdles and making the sound 'hard' is a very real possibility.

John 

[lcrim]

I don't think there is any single answer to what I am experiencing but the exact same thing was heard by others in my household w/o any prompting from me, and my girlfriend and daughter never comment on such things.  Just for the sake of accuracy, the Stanton TrackMaster II began life as a DJ cartridge @ 7.0 mV and Kevin makes modifications including a cantilever change which reduces tracking force to 1.5 gms and output to 3.5 mV
The Glider L2 arrived w/ a factory test graph that set the output @ .42 mV which is actually higher than the advertized .3 mV  Thus the percentage difference is lower.
The Eastern Electric Minimax does have a high and a low MC input.  I must assume that there is a resistor in the path as only one gain figure is quoted.  I may phone Bill O'Connell for clarification later.
I also think that this is all relative.  The system is quite resolved and the harshness we heard is only in comparison to the MM, that had been in the box for more than a year.
Gary: I have been looking at the K&K Lundahl SUT kit @ $275 using the Lundahl LL9206 tapped for 20 dB gain
http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html
when the holiday and hospital bills are all cleared up.  Its a bit pricey but I've read good reviews of it.  It is already engineered which is a big plus as I don't have to source all the bits and pieces.

[blakep]

I'm sure that your feeling that each and every soldered connection is something of a hurdle to such a low voltage signal from a LOMC has merit.  One possible solution is the Aqvox phono section, which can be configured as a fully balanced current sensing device rather than a voltage sensing piece.  Blakep who occasionally looks in here has one IIRC and perhaps he can fill us in.  From a practical standpoint, because my 1200 MKII has the tonearm rewire w/ the Cardas,  its fairly easy to change to a DIN connector and find a premade DIN to XLR cableset which is available from Cardas among others.  The Aqvox has unfortunately roughly doubled in price in its second iteration.  I'm a bit short of funds currently but this may be a solution as well as my above thoughts on SUT and above $1000 LOMC's which might be substituted by a wooden bodied Denon 103R that we discussed in an earlier thread (w/ input from Blakep).
At present the Trackmaster II and the EE MM phono section are leaving me with good music.

Hi Larry: The Aqvox (which I do have) may be a solution for you but I probably would not spring for one without having the ability to first audition it, which you can do with the supplied RCA to XLR adapaters. As others have stated here, loading can be particularly critical (and subjective, just like lots of this hobby) with low output MC's. I was lucky to be able to audition the Aqvox with my setup (Michell Gyro/Premiere FT3/Denon 103R) before I purchased and have been thrilled with it. Ironically, Werner Ogiers, in his review of the Aqvox in TNT did not like the sound of the standard 103 on a Technics 1200 through the Aqvox and suggested that the Denon 103/Technics arm resulted in a slightly lean quality which he felt might have been exaggerated by the Aqvox. I certainly have not had that impression in my system and Werner tried a number of cartridge/arm/table combos with the Aqvox and liked the rest of them. He is also, in general quite positive on the Technics table overall.

So something that has not (I don't believe) been brought up in this thread so far may be contributing to your situation and that is the arm/cartridge interface. The Technics arm may just not be a particularly good match with many of the LOMC's, or, put another way, it may simply be a better match with MM's, or at least the one you are using, for any number of reasons (compliance, weight of cartridge, etc.).

I really like the Aqvox and the idea that it is, essentially, plug and play in the balanced mode with no need to screw around with loading (and the 103R's very low impedance would seem to be a "proper" kind of matchup with that system) is a real plus to me but may not suit the "tweakier" vinyl types. But I'm not sure it would eliminate your problem and, as I said, wouldn't spring without an audition.

[lcrim]

blake:
Thanks for your reply.  The arm which has the benefit of a damping tray and a rewire should not have an issue w/ the compliance nor the mass of the Glider.  It certainly tracks well installed on the arm.  It is used sucessfully by others but it may be happier with the the other cartridge. 
I may settle for trying a different SUT w/ the Glider into the MM inputs of the Eastern Electric as I detailed above.

[GBB]

The Eastern Electric Minimax does have a high and a low MC input.  I must assume that there is a resistor in the path as only one gain figure is quoted.  I may phone Bill O'Connell for clarification later.

Gary: I have been looking at the K&K Lundahl SUT kit @ $275 using the Lundahl LL9206 tapped for 20 dB gain
http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html
when the holiday and hospital bills are all cleared up.  Its a bit pricey but I've read good reviews of it.  It is already engineered which is a big plus as I don't have to source all the bits and pieces.

Larry,
There's a review of the Eastern Electric Minimax over at TNT Audio and the reviewer found that the SUT built into the unit is as good as his reference SUTs.  I know the reviewer, Hartmut Quaschik and he's extremely experienced and uses very good SUTs.  So if he says the built in transformer is good, then I'd believe him.

The K+K transformers are good but I'd be surprised if they were any better than what you already have in the unit.  So getting back on my soap box, I'd start playing with cartridge loading to see if you can get the sound you want.  The best way to do this is to get a selection of resistors and some clip leads and play with resistors until you find a combination that has the right balance.  Then buy the best resistor you can in that value and solder it in.  I've had good luck with Caddock resistors in my system.

---Gary

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/minimax_phono_e.html

[bacobits1]

Is there a way of loading resistors of different value on the Mini Max Phono?
That is using the RCA plugs loaded with resistors.
I was told you cannot up or down the fixed load on this Pre.
I don't do the math forget it.

BTW, I use mine with a DL103 and a LO Benz Glider. No problems with volume, distortion, excessive noise etc. I have not used MM in a long time.

Let me add you have to trust the women with the better hearing for sure.


D

[lcrim]

OK, first I spoke w/ Bill O'Connell regarding the Eastern Electric phono section and whether there was a resistor internally to change the loading from 100 ohms to 47 ohms.  Bill, being the conscientious customer service guy that he is, offered to have it looked at by a tech to determine if there was anything wrong.  I passed on that kind offer but did buy a replacement rectifier tube as long as we were speaking.
Next, I also own a Jolida JD-9 phono section which has numerous loading options.  I hooked it up and tried the options: 100 ohms, 300 ohms, 1000 ohms and 47,000 ohms on the Glider but I couldn't hear much if any difference between them.  I also tried my Dual CS 5000 w/ a Goldring Eroica LX (LOMC -.5 mV output) with the Eastern Elecric loaded @ 100 ohms.  It sounded smoother and more coherent than the Glider but in the end result, nothing sounded as musical and coherent, top to bottom as the MM Stanton/KAB Trackmaster II using the MM section from the Eastern Electric so that's what I listened to for the rest of the evening.

[andyr]

Is there a way of loading resistors of different value on the Mini Max Phono?
That is using the RCA plugs loaded with resistors.
I was told you cannot up or down the fixed load on this Pre.
I don't do the math forget it.

BTW, I use mine with a DL103 and a LO Benz Glider. No problems with volume, distortion, excessive noise etc. I have not used MM in a long time.

Let me add you have to trust the women with the better hearing for sure.

D

There is an easy way to play with cartridge loading with any phonostage IMO. 

IMO, a properly designed phono stage (or head amp) has:
* 47K resistors in the load position (to suit many/most MMs), and
* a second, parallel pair of phono RCAs into which one can insert "loaded" RCA plugs.  EG. 1K resistors in such plugs, when placed in parallel with the in-built 47K, deliver a load of just under 1K (979 ohms, to be precise).  For your DL103, 100 ohm loaded plugs would be just fine.

If you don't have parallel input RCAs then use RCA 'Y' connectors.  The phono cable goes into one branch of the 'Y', the loaded plug into the other and the end of the connector goes into the input RCA of the phono stage.  You get the parallelling of the loading resistors at the penelty of an extra contact in the signal chain.  However, you can buy quite high quality 'Y' connectors (as well as cheap ones).

Regards,

Andy