[Double Ugly]

Fellas -

Before the thread takes a turn for the worse, I think it's best if we make an attempt to keep this conversation within certain boundaries:

(1)  Remain on topic.  The OP said he is "open to suggestions" for speakers that offer "a better rendering of an orchestral performance -- meaning a better soundstage, better resolution and better imaging -- with a speaker that moves more air."

If you believe it's possible and know of a speaker meeting the OP's stated desires, please contribute to this thread.

(2) This is Audio Central; no manufacturers or retailers should be contributing to this thread unless their input is specifically requested by the OP (e.g. zybar).

(3) Images - you may want to reconsider asking manufacturers and retailers for feedback on an item they sell and/or manufacturer, at least in Audio Central.  Doing so not only guarantees a biased description, but it will often lead other, uninvited retailers and manufacturers to feel free to offer their input, too.  That's problematic, as Audio Circle rules prohibit it.

If you desire retailer/manufacturer input, I recommend you either (a) post your question in their circle, or (b) if they don't have a circle, send an e-mail or Personal Message (PM).

Thanks.

Double Ugly
Facilitator, Audio Central

[TheChairGuy]

Damn - you're good (thoughtful), Jim/DU 

The oft-contentious Audio Central is in waaay better hands with you at the helm, than I.

Hey - nobody out there needs to second that opinion, either 

Regards, John

[richidoo]

Ali, those speakers were great, but it was hard to get the guy to play orchestral music, even on the last day with hallways empty.  Weird demo... But those wild diffusors really worked great. Bass was awesome in that room, as was everything else. Plasma tweeters are cool! But I would have no money left for CDs!! 

[Images]

Well, well, well, there certainly is a wealth of information in this thread.  No doubt I am getting my money’s worth.  I must acknowledge and appreciate the recent posters for the passion in their opinions.  When all is said in done, each of us is trying to squeeze the most musical enjoyment out of our systems that time and money will allow.  For me, the emotional connection to the music is probably what gives me the greatest satisfaction.   To accomplish this, I require blah, blah, blah.  Someone else may have the exact same goal, but for them blah, blah, blah is something else.   It is a SUBJECTIVE judgment call.  It is more art than science.   Speaker design can be empirical science.   Music appreciation, which is the goal in this whole time consuming and costly exercise, is not.  That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

In an earlier post I said, “Both the Nomad Ronins and the Orions satisfy my dipole appetite ala Dahlquist, Acarian Systems and Alon.  In other words, the designs of Carl Marchisotto seem to have greatly influenced my audio sensibilities.  Dipoles just make sense to me.”  Continuing along those lines, I must thank Tweaker for bringing another Marchisotto design to my attention, namely the Nola Viper IA.  I thought all his current products were out of my reach.  As I review the candidates, I am going to have to eliminate the Orions, despite their pedigree.  Too costly and too many components, at least at this time.  The Emerald Physics CS2's intrigue me, but they must also drop by the wayside.  The “unadorned” wide black fabric faces will not contribute to domestic tranquility, I’m afraid.  (NOTE:  Perhaps, as implied by our facilitator, I opened a can of worms by requesting zybar to comment on these.  At the time of that posting I don’t believe I fully understood what his relationship was to the product.  In the future I will follow Double Ugly’s advice.)

So here, hopefully, are my final conclusions.  And remember, please, this is a subjective call based on music appreciation more than speaker technology.  I have three categories to consider:  Realistic (meaning affordable now), Very Appealing (meaning save more $ and buy later this year) and Wildcard (meaning I need to find more reviews or users.)

Realistic
•   SP Tech Timepiece Minis
•   Salk QWs
Very Appealing
•   Salk Veracity HT3s
•   Nomad Ronins w/plate amp
Wildcard
•   Nola Viper IA

Of course, all things being subjective, I can change my mind, or someone can “nudge” me in another direction.  But, at this time, I feel very good about the significant amount of information this thread has provided.  Frankly, I am grateful and I thank you all for your considered contributions.  And now, 11 days after this began, let me again wish everyone a Happy and Musically Satisfying 2008!

[Rob Babcock]

I'm glad to see AC is serving you well, Images.   There's a wealth of knowledge & experience on tap here, and I'm glad you find it helpful.

[Danny Richie]

Hey Double Ugly, and everyone else.

I hope you guys realize that my participation was specifically directed at the discussion as to whether or not a convincing reproduction of a symphony orchestra is possible, including SPL levels.

My post was not made to plug products.

In using a design of my own as an example I was up front in letting everyone know that so if one were to suspect a bias on my part they can take it as such.

The last line in my post could have been taken as a plug (but was not meant to be) so it was removed.

Thanks,

[doug s.]

images, i would strongly consider these:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?spkrfull&1205281124


i own the earlier non-"ll" iteration, & they are excellent, imo.  they sound even better, if mounted on ~10" stands - they will then approximate the sound of the much spendier total victories, except for the low end.  i augment mine w/a pair of vmps larger subs...  i also own a pair of more expensive piega p5 mkll ltd's, which would also do the trick, but these are quite rare...

doug s.

[Tawaun]

   Dont listen to all the BS you hear about what Maggies cant do,its extremely misleading,you want to hear full large scale music maggies are very very hard to beat,just listen to a pair of 3.6 to get your lips wet,and 20.1s will make you droll in your lap,and if you cant afford any of them the 1.6 will do just fine its still the best audiophile bargain on the planet.

[dorokusai]

   Dont listen to all the BS you hear about what Maggies cant do,its extremely misleading,you want to hear full large scale music maggies are very very hard to beat,just listen to a pair of 3.6 to get your lips wet,and 20.1s will make you droll in your lap,and if you cant afford any of them the 1.6 will do just fine its still the best audiophile bargain on the planet.

I agree in the body of what you're saying as the 3.5R/3.6 isn't a bass slouch, it's only missing the lowest octave. It's an easy tweak with an outboard subwoofer, and it doesn't have to be a monster. If you've ever listened to Tool, Undertow for example, the larger Magnepan handle the bass just fine.

A pipe organ? Well, that might send you back to the factory but my point is that they produce typical bass just fine. There are also placement problems people usually mention and that's a crock to me as well. I haven't owned a loudspeaker to date that was difficult to setup....and I have a far from perfect room. YMMV.

The 3 series is enough to not worry about the larger 20.1 but to each his own.

I've been thru every stage of Magnepan ownership, starting at the wonderful MMG and ending at the 3.5R. One of the best bargains in audio for pure audio fun is the MMG....after that it's the 1.6. If you don't like them after that, rock on and try something else.

I have to go take my meds.

Mark (Magnepan Fan

[doug s.]

that's true, as long as you like them.  i, for one, do not at all like the overblown diffuse soundstage presented by maggies.  which is why there's different speaker designs out there, i guess...   

doug s.

   Dont listen to all the BS you hear about what Maggies cant do,its extremely misleading,you want to hear full large scale music maggies are very very hard to beat,just listen to a pair of 3.6 to get your lips wet,and 20.1s will make you droll in your lap,and if you cant afford any of them the 1.6 will do just fine its still the best audiophile bargain on the planet.

[TerryO]

I just read through the whole thread and have noticed many nice recommendations. For symphonic music, I'd personally look at Harbeth speakers (which have already been suggested), the Vivaldi (yes, a Lowther based speaker, unlike any other and designed with modern methods!) and if possible the Edgar Horn speaker.

All three have a superb tonal balance and realistic sense of scale. The latter two may cost bit more than you want to pay, however they can do with lower power amplification which can save you some money. It would be hard for me to choose from these three, they all have certain, but different, attributes. I'd probably end up going with the Vivaldi, as the sound and the cabinet work are simply stunning.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[twitch54]

With all that salt air around you it really dosen't matter what you buy, they will be shot in less than five years anyways !  Save your $$ buy some "Rad Shack" outdoor speakers, and put the rest of your $$$ towards attending live Orchestral events throughout the land !!

While I'm serious about the salt air attacking whatever you do decide upon, I might as well put this one in the hat !.............

Martin Logan - Vantage.  As much as I do love the M/L sound I'm not sure how well the ESL panels would hold up given your enviroment.

I stand by my first recomendation,  LOL !

[Tawaun]

   I disagree with the overblown images and diffuse soundstage,if you point the tweeters inwards most of that is banished,their real life sized images are more true to life than typical cone speakers which typically make sharp outlines of images but in real life thats not how it really is if anything on most speakers images are underblown and shrunk down to a smaller size kinda a like 2 litre of soda shrunk to a 20oz bottle if you will,Maggies breath life into music which after all is life,lots of speakers today do very well technically speaking but many fail to make music sound like real music,every Maggie does this even the lil MMG,and even before that the SMG series were awsome at this the SMG series specifically are 1 of the most musical speakers I've heard.You cant argue with radiating surface area,and no box
coloration to boot,it becomes obvious why Maggies are so loved and so realistic sounding.Line sources are very good as well and they can hit that bottom octave such as Danny's LS-6 & 9 while still producing big lifesize images.there's only a few other cone speakers I've heard produce these kinda images or close to it rather,the Legacy Whisper comes to mind,so does the Revel Saloons,the Dynaudio C1's,Green Mountain Callisto,Vienna Accoustic Strauss and Mauler the Ohm Walsh series especially the A & F, Aerial 10T's,Dalahquest DQ 10 & 20 (i know i spelled that wrong),the old Infinity Overture 3's and the real big ones that were linesource and had a seprate bass module the big Innersounds,Apogee's,and amazingly the lil Totem Arro's.Keep in mind these are the ones that I've heard nearly recreate a live event yours may be different.

[miklorsmith]

Revel Saloons?  Vienna Maulers??   

Dem sum good mispelings dere.

[Tawaun]

^^^Yep i had my 4 yr old daughter,running around the house making me nervous.

[doug s.]

of course you disagree w/my assessment of maggies - that's why you and many others like them, & that's why i, and many others do not.     i have heard many speakers throw a realistic soundstage - to my ears. cone, line array, & yes, even planars.  even a coupla speakers you mention, i have heard & enjoyed.  but, for me, only curved planars do it.  again, to my ears, flat planars sound overblown, not like real music.  but, it's ok - everyone should get what they like...   

doug s.

   I disagree with the overblown images and diffuse soundstage,if you point the tweeters inwards most of that is banished,their real life sized images are more true to life than typical cone speakers which typically make sharp outlines of images but in real life thats not how it really is if anything on most speakers images are underblown and shrunk down to a smaller size kinda a like 2 litre of soda shrunk to a 20oz bottle if you will,Maggies breath life into music which after all is life,lots of speakers today do very well technically speaking but many fail to make music sound like real music,every Maggie does this even the lil MMG,and even before that the SMG series were awsome at this the SMG series specifically are 1 of the most musical speakers I've heard.You cant argue with radiating surface area,and no box
coloration to boot,it becomes obvious why Maggies are so loved and so realistic sounding.Line sources are very good as well and they can hit that bottom octave such as Danny's LS-6 & 9 while still producing big lifesize images.there's only a few other cone speakers I've heard produce these kinda images or close to it rather,the Legacy Whisper comes to mind,so does the Revel Saloons,the Dynaudio C1's,Green Mountain Callisto,Vienna Accoustic Strauss and Mauler the Ohm Walsh series especially the A & F, Aerial 10T's,Dalahquest DQ 10 & 20 (i know i spelled that wrong),the old Infinity Overture 3's and the real big ones that were linesource and had a seprate bass module the big Innersounds,Apogee's,and amazingly the lil Totem Arro's.Keep in mind these are the ones that I've heard nearly recreate a live event yours may be different.