I've joined the SP Tech Club

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #20 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 09:01 am »

I strongly disagree. I do not think 50 - 100 watts is enough for studio use.

I listen at sane levels - about 75 - 85 dB, but the speakers are in the midfield - about 6 feet away. I don't believe these were intended for the nearfield, which is usually taken to be around 3 feet.

It is essential for critical monitoring that any distortion heard is not a product of the amp or speakers, but upstream. For this, serious headroom is essential.

I don't see how you can make these statements given that, according to your post on this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48698.msg436883;topicseen#new
you have yet to hear any SP Tech speakers.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #21 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 02:05 pm »

3 feet is extremely close for speakers this large. It may make you uncomfortable to have such large and imposing objects taking up more than half of your field of vision, if the driver integration doesn't bother you.

Listening to uncompressed materials, however, is even more extremely demanding, especially the large dynamic swings of an ensemble. For serious mixing, I would expect that this is a must, and therefore you need all the power you can get. For listening otherwise, maybe you could get away with less power in close range.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #22 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 02:11 pm »

I am no studio engineer but have spoken with some of the most highly regarded engineers in the country, possibly in the world. I have spoken with studio designers that have been involved with the designed multi million dollar studios. I do agree that for serious studio recording one needs a lot of sufficient, clean power (which is cheap these days).

I have custom built/modified a few tube amps for those with a home recording studios ranging anywhere from 70-200 watts of tube power. Some are more serious than others in what they are doing but all are happy with their setups. I do have one customer running a highly modified 70 watt Jolida 801 (as a power amp only) with a pair of SP Continuums in a studio application and he has been satisfied with this arrangement for a few years now.

With the SP Tech speakers, used in a serious studio environment, you would need some serious power with plenty of headroom. In spence's situation, the speakers will be used more in a playback system rather than in the studio so it will be up to him just how he wants to set this system up.

spence · « **Reply #23 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 02:14 pm »

Hi Bill! I'm going to be using the 3.0's as my main 2 channel stereo speakers for casual music listening in my living room (15x12), so I could probably get by with the 200 watt CIA's in this case. The nice thing is that I can get a brand new pair of CIA's for the price of a used pair of Bel Cantos. I'm familiar with Crown amps, having played in rock bands for years, but I always thought they were more for live sound with their sheer brute power rather than more critical listening situations. Then again, lots of studios have used Crown or Bryston amps powering their monitors instead of so called "audiophile amps" that most would assume would deliver a clearer image, so what do I know????? Some of the best recordings ever were probably mixed with Crown or Bryston, which makes me wonder if all this "audiophile" talk is more bunk than bulk. Heck, most studios use Mogami cable to get the microphone signal to tape (or digital) instead of some fancy "high end" cable, but I don't want to open that can of worms! If it sounds good, it sounds good.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 02:25 pm »

Keep in mind that the Continuums effectively require 1/4 the power of the Timepieces due to the halving of the impedance and the increased sensitivity.

The Crown Macro Reference are of a different breed than their typical lineup, from what I can research. Unfortunately, they are no longer in production.

I already have my AVA 550EX in my system and given its performance on my current speakers (SP Tech AV-2) I would recommend auditioning them or the Ultra 550EX in your systems. This is a very fine amp. Of course Bill has his excellent tube amps, as well.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 02:57 pm »

Hi Spence,
I realized you were going to be using the 3.0's in a playback system which is why I didn't go too far in depth about you in particular. Most of my comments were in response to studio applications. Then again, I am sure you will try the 3.0's in the studio as well

There are a lot of good power options available and many can be found within manufacturers right here on Audio Circle. Since you have some time, I would do some researching and see what might best fit your personal preferences

Cable discussions are yet another Pandora's Box

I know of some using the most basic cables while others are using audiophile variations. For some reason, I have dealt with a lot of customers the past few years with recoding studios and aside from selling them amplifiers and/or speakers, I have been asked to custom build cables for their applications as well. At this very moment I am running in my showroom a pair of balanced interconnects (based on the Clarity Labs Emberglow) that I originally built for a recording studio. I will also admit that I have some cables that I built for unique applications in test systems that are similar to the design and cost of those by Mogami and similar. When I need a cable for a one-time application (maybe 15-20ft.), I will throw one together. At this point, I will always have it around in case I need it in the future.

However, when these cables are compared to their audiophile counterparts, there is a noticable difference. I would not use these 'studio' style cables in my reference system. Let's please not comment too much on this remark

It's already been beat to death. I mention this as my personal observation and not to start a cable debate within this thread.

Quote

I already have my AVA 550EX in my system and given its performance on my current speakers (SP Tech AV-2) I would recommend auditioning them or the Ultra 550EX in your systems. This is a very fine amp. Of course Bill has his excellent tube amps, as well.

Nice save ooheadsoo.....Just kidding. Thanks for that one. As I mentioned above, there are a lot of fine options to be found here on AC.

mfsoa · « **Reply #26 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 03:38 pm »

I thought my 100 watt tube amp handled the TP 2.0s just fine in my room. (13 x 17')

While I'd love to sell you my D200s, if you want to go tubes I'm sure Bill can hook you up reaalll nicely!

-Mike

spence · « **Reply #27 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 03:44 pm »

Mike,
I'd buy your D200's if they were XLR.....my system is entirely balanced.

Thanks,
Dave

mfsoa · « **Reply #28 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 03:52 pm »

Bummer - I had them changed from XLR to RCA just a few months ago. I forget what it cost to have CIA do it, but it wasn't too much.

Thanks for the thought, though.

-Mike

Double Ugly · « **Reply #29 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: spence on 20 Dec 2007, 02:14 pm

Hi Bill! I'm going to be using the 3.0's as my main 2 channel stereo speakers for casual music listening in my living room (15x12), so I could probably get by with the 200 watt CIA's in this case.

Yes, you could.

However, you may want to keep Russell's comments in mind. Should you decide to begin using them for mixing/mastering, too (I wouldn't be shocked), the extra headroom will come in awfully handy. In that case, the Bel Canto would probably suit your needs better, as would a McCormack DNA-500 or Spectron Musician III Signature Edition.

I heard the new Spectron drive the SP Tech Revelations in Denver a couple of months ago, and I liked it so much that I bought one to replace a pair of Butler Audio Monad monoblocks I'd been using almost 3 years.

Even if you decide to keep them in a strictly "casual listening" environment, cranking them is a awful lot of fun. Their distortion is so low, and they're so musical... you'll see.

FWIW...

RodMCV · « **Reply #30 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 08:35 pm »

I just read a great review on the Spectron Musician III Signature Edition in the January TAS.

bhobba · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 10:34 pm »

Quote from: spence on 20 Dec 2007, 02:14 pm

Hi Bill! I'm going to be using the 3.0's as my main 2 channel stereo speakers for casual music listening in my living room (15x12), so I could probably get by with the 200 watt CIA's in this case.

My view of amp power is captured perfectly by Dave Ellis:
http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm

The SP 3.0's are 85db so his recommendations apply without modification.

Please remember the ear is logarithmic in its responce - a 1 K monster will only sound twice as loud as the average 100W amp and only 4 times as loud as a puny 10 W amp. Thus there is no practical difference between say a 70W amp and a 100W amp. Considering the soft cliiping characteristics of valves I would suggest the 70W amp recommended by Bill or, for solid state, the 200W CI amp. The choice between valves and solid state is a personnel preference, and without wanting to get into a war of words about it (I will not be drawn into it) I ask you to take into account the reliability of valves in your choice. For me that consideration always tips the choice towards solid state.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 Dec 2007, 10:56 pm »

Quote from: RodMCV on 20 Dec 2007, 08:35 pm

I just read a great review on the Spectron Musician III Signature Edition in the January TAS.

Many have commented on how good that amp sounds with SP gear - and at over $6000.00 it should. If you can live with 100w I would consider the cheaper Soraya CB105
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-108756.html
'This Soraya is not more, not less, than the best.'

From reading Spence's posts he is looking for something in the $1500-2000 price bracket. If he likes valve stuff then Bill can give some good recommendations . For solid state I do not believe you can go past the CI 200W's already mentioned. Indeed, based on my experience, 100W is enough IMHO so the D100 would be OK
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48465.0
Sounding free, unfettered and really not like any type of amplifier at all, the D•100's are in a class of their own."

To me that is exactly what an amp should do - have no sound of it own. Forget about all this romantic prose you read in reviews - the test is - can you 'hear' the amp - not is it romantic, does it put you in the back of the theatre, or all the other 'silly' gush some reviewers go on about.

Thanks
Bill

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #33 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 12:26 am »

Quote from: bhobba on 20 Dec 2007, 10:56 pm

Indeed, based on my experience, 100W is enough IMHO so the D100 would be OK

Bill, do you have specific experience with the SP Tech Timepieces or with the requirements of studio monitoring?

If not, I am afraid you may be doing spence a serious disservice by recommending this power range in an amp. Although his initial intent is to use the pair for "casual music listening" there is the possibility that they will wind up in the studio at which point 100 WRMS will not be enough, in my opinion, and I have listened to the Timepieces with this kind of power. Then spence is stuck looking for another amp.

Spence, I think that the second hand Bel Canto, which has already depreciated will be worth more than the CI once they have depreciated as they will as soon as you buy them and they represent the cheapest access to the sort of power you do need with the Timepieces.

bhobba · « **Reply #34 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 12:50 am »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 21 Dec 2007, 12:26 am

and I have listened to the Timepieces with this kind of power.

I bow to your greater experience in this matter. I have listneed to 85db efficient speakers with a 100W amp and, for me, exactly as Dave Ellis said, it is more than enough. For me to say otherwise I would be telling a porky.

Thanks
Bill

RodMCV · « **Reply #35 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 01:54 am »

Crown Reference Amp on agon, that's the power!
That's also the amp Bob has used during the speaker's development.

Remember that Impedance curves and Phase curves are variable values for most speakers at different frequencies.
This is why a relatively efficient speaker may be a bear to drive with some music and may sound better with some amps; not just more power.

When the values drop,this is the frequency that will have the higher power demand. This may be an instantaneous
moment that an amp best suited for a higher impedance can't provide for.

Some will say that a faster slew rate helps this problem and the Luminance KST-150 certainly has that in spades.
Some say the damping factor helps too.

I am one to think current and voltage and headroom are the operative words here.

Ken Kessler has written on the power need subject; I think in June or July Stereophile.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #36 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 01:56 am »

I think we are overlooking something here. What spence is looking for is an amp for his audio system and not his studio. I am sure his studio is already established as he is working on his audio rig now. When/if the speakers make it down to the studio, the amp in the studio rig will take over. I do agree he owes it to himself to try the Timepieces out in the studio enviroment but for now, he is concentrating on the other system.

For the two channel audio rig, any of the amplifiers mentioned throughout the course of this thread will do a fine job. Yes, the more power/current he feeds the Timepieces, the more dynamic potential will be realized but from speaking with him, he is not looking to rattle any windows here.

I am not in a position to offer him and amplifier as he is not looking at tubes and I don't deal with any solid state (at least not in the price point he is looking at). Everybody here knows I'm a tube guy. I think one of the Bel Cantos would be a very good choice just as I think the CI 200 would do the job. There are a lot of Bel Canto amps for sale on AudioGon at the moment. Personally, I would stick with the Ref 1000 Bel Canto or D200's (minimum) as the Timepieces would love this kind of power. But hey, what do I know....... there's no glowing glass in them

One other SS amp I would recommend looking at one of the McCormack amps. Good quality amps that can be had for under $1500 on the used market.

I am sure he will do his research and make the right decision for his needs.

RodMCV · « **Reply #37 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 02:01 am »

Sorry, that's Keith Howard in the July issue.
I don't know how to cut and paste but it can be found on the web site
under Reference and title Heavy Load: How Loudspeakers Torture Amplifiers

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #38 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 02:11 am »

In a studio environment where you can uncompressed material with 40db+ spikes, you will need a quick beast of an amp to supply that power without clipping. With an average level of 80db, that will still take you to 130db for a split instant. I've also been considering the d-sonic magnum amps, but they seem to have gone up in price a bit. http://www.d-sonic.net/ Their implementation is similar to the Bel Canto.

RodMCV · « **Reply #39 on:** 21 Dec 2007, 02:28 am »

Ric Shultz of EVS has some highly thought of ICE module Amps . Good prices and he is here on the circle.
Also Underwood Highfi has some new Ice Based Amps listed on Agon today.