[SWG255]

Greetings:

I have been skeptical of the value of upgrading the AC power cords used in my system. Since several circle members have indicated an upgrade to the AC power cord is beneficial, i have some "newbie" questions:

First, where might i find a discussion of the merits of upgrading my AC power cord, especially for power amplification?

In the opinion of those more experienced with AC cord upgrades, what might i expect to hear with an upgraded power cord?

Finally, what would be a good short list of brands of upgraded AC power cords to consider, especially those which won't cost an arm and a leg? (Perhaps this isn't fair, but since I'm skeptical of the value of such an upgrade, I'm not likely to try one for more than $100 to $150 at the most.)

If it matters, I'm considering this upgrade to go with my planned purchase of a Carver Pro ZR1600 from 8th nerve, and of course they are offering me a nice price on their AC power cord for use with the amplifier.

Thanks very much for your patience on these questions.

[Jay S]

Power cords are quite important.  Suggest you don't spend more than $100 each.  Try Bolder Cables (www.boldercables.com) - I have used all their power cords.  Also try ww.cvhaudio.com.  

You will hear tighter and deeper bass, more transparency, a more fleshed out midrange, and more extended but smoother highs.  That said, power cables can take a month to break in.  Until they do, the highs may be strident.  Suggest you break them in on a PC monitor or other energy hungry device to break them in.

[Hantra]

In the opinion of those more experienced with AC cord upgrades, what might i expect to hear with an upgraded power cord?

Well, IMO, power cords and power tweaks help more the closer to the source you get.  Preamplifiers are particularly responsive to upgrades.  

Benefits you may hear would be a quiter background, improved transients, musicality, details, low-level detail.  It all depends really on the componenet, and the cord.

As far as recommendations, I agree that the Bolder Nitros are good, but they may be out of your range.  The Audience kills them, but they are MUCH more money.  I can't wait to hear the 8th Nerve cord myself.  Got one on the way. . .

Good luck!

B

[Jay S]

Oops, make that www.vhaudio.com     Thanks to Satfrat for the clarifcation.

[Psychicanimal]

First, where might i find a discussion of the merits of upgrading my AC power cord, especially for power amplification?

In the opinion of those more experienced with AC cord upgrades, what might i expect to hear with an upgraded power cord?

If it matters, I'm considering this upgrade to go with my planned purchase of a Carver Pro ZR1600 from 8th nerve, and of course they are offering me a nice price on their AC power cord for use with the amplifier.

The Audiogon archives are an excellent source of information on power cords.  The Asylum archives, too, but I find it harder to navigate because of their branched tree format.  Empirical Audio's website also has some really good technical information.  Look in the manufacturers circle.

What you hear from a power cords depends on three things:

   a) power supply of your component
   b) quality of your electricity
   c) power cord's design (and/or configuration)

Most designer power cords act as HF filters to reduce noise.  Since most people's power delivery/noise control rigs (if any at all) are substandard, there is an improvement in the noise floor.  However, the tradeoff is in treble extension.  The other problems with some cords are exaggerated/rolled off bass and unnatural spatial enhancement.  All this is intentional to make the customer buy the product because it does "something" to the music.  A power cord must be tuned--either by design or by the use of an external tuning device like the Highwire Wirewrap ($25).  Any cable you can buy in foot increments is not tuned.

On the subject of HF rolloff, I have experimented in my system (and Lak's), which have excellent power delivery/noise control measures.  We have found that the cheap, tuned design Absolute Power Cord ($50 new, $25 used) outperforms power cords 10 times more expensive--especially the cryo'ed ones.   The people who spend a lot of money on expensive *esoteric* power cords won't admit it, but this is reality.  With proper power delivery/noise control inexpensive designs (like the Absolute or VenHaus w/ a Wirewrap) sent for cryo treatment will give you better results than the "audio salon" stuff.  A friend of mine who's into power cords told me he opened one of those Audience power cords Hantra likes.  He said the cable is a $3.99/ft cable in a fancy sheath.  There's a story in the Asylum of someone who spent $500 on a power cord and it turned out to be cheap Leviton cable available in Home Depot!

If you were to keep the Threshold amp and spend the money on a couple beast 220V transformers from eBay and some cryo'ed outlets and inexpensive power cords you'd not believe what would happen.  Perhaps you need to buy the Carver and find out on your own.  Make sure you get a 30 day money back guarantee!

BTW, Lak is considered in Audiogon "The world's expert on cryo'ed outlets".  He's got a setup of six dedicated lines rigged with different outlets.  He's spent a lot of time on this and the conclusions we've reached are based on some serious listening under adequate listening conditions in our systems.  I have only one dedicated line but it's 30 ampere, 220V.

[aaird]

I have heard excellent things about  Lat interntational.   They have a unique cable that is also very inexpensive, at least compared to what you can pay for power cords.   I think there is even a used one available on Audiogon, or there was a day or two ago.


http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/page-20140.html

Andrew

[SWG255]

Hi,

Thanks for the very interesting reply and comments regarding AC power cords for my power amplifiers, the Threshold and the proposed purchase of the Carver Pro ZR 1600.

I'm still a bit confused and have some questions:

When you say the cheap Absolute Power Cord outperforms the expensive salon cords, especially the cryo'd, do you mean the Absolute Power Cord is better and especially if it has been cryo'd?

I have put my components on a separate circuit in my house, but I haven't done anything else for them. I believe it's a 20-amp circuit but I'm not an electrician. The switch in the breaker box looks the same as the rest. I'm sure the wiring from the breaker box to the outlets is standard stuff. If I understand you, you are advocating putting in a 220 volt circuit, cryo'd outlets, and using Beast 220-volt transformers to step the voltage down for the audio equipment. Is this generally correct?

Again, I'm no electrician, so I'd have to pay one to do the work. Aren't their code issues involved? i always thought 220-volt lines were strictly for stoves and the like and it would not be considered "code" to use them for other purposes.

Back to the cables themselves, If I were to buy an Absolute power Cord, how would i go about getting it cryo'd?

As for the other questions about how a power cord effects the high-frequency extension of a component, or its soundstage presentation, I'll try to review the Audiogon, Audio Asylum and Empirical Audio sites for clues.

I think my skepticism remains intact, and my feeling that high-end cable prices are a great way to make some real money if one relies on P.T. Barnum's old axiom. Still, I'm not totally closed-minded about this, so the research continues...

 

The Audiogon archives are an excellent source of information on power cords.  The Asylum archives, too, but I find it harder to navigate because of their branched tree format.  Empirical Audio's website also has some really good technical information.  Look in the manufacturers circle.

What you hear from a power cords depends on three things:

   a) power supply of your component
   b) quality of your electricity
   c) power cord's design (and/or configuration)

Most designer power cords act as HF  ...

[John Casler]

I just became a dealer for a company that offers some (I've been told) very good PCs.

So I thought why not give them a try, since its an area I have not explored.  So I have ordered one to A/B against the "stock" (probably $9) 20 AMP PC that came with my amp.

If I find it makes a notable or noticable difference, I will report the results in the commercial circle and reveal the brand and price (reasonable)

[audioengr]

Here is some power cord theory, and measurements:

Amplifiers demand current from the power-line when the capacitors in their power-supplies become momentarily discharged due to high-current transients in the music signal. This discharge condition must be quickly recharged from the power-line, through the power-supply transformer, or a voltage sag will occur. Such voltage sags can cause audible distortion at the loudspeakers. If the power-line has significant series inductance in the path from the power panel to the amplifier, this can prevent the capacitor bank from recharging in time to prevent a voltage sag from occurring at the amplifier output transistors. With a low-inductance cable, the voltage drop across the cable will be insignificant during high-current transients, minimizing the voltage sag. This allows all of the current needed by the output transistors to be supplied when they need it, resulting in  fast, dynamic response to transient signals.

A typical 6-foot 14 AWG rubber cord and 25 feet of ROMEX has inductance of 7.2 uH and resistance of 235 mohms, ignoring the plug resistance effect.  Therefore, the voltage drop at 20kHz will be I*(wL+R)= I*(.905+.235) = I*(1.14).  With a 6-foot Magnum2 and 25 feet of ROMEX, the inductance is 5.9 uH and the total resistance is 147 mohms.  This is an 18% reduction in inductance and a 37% reduction in resistance.  The voltage drop for this combination will be I(wL+R) = I(.741+.147) = I(.888).  So at a fixed dynamic current I, the voltage drop in the entire power feed at 20kHz is 22% smaller with a Magnum2 power cord.  I would consider 22% to be significant.  The reality is even more compelling.  When you add in lower plug and receptacle resistance and the fact that the di/dt on the power cord will have spectra well above 20kHz with some amplifiers, the low-inductance cord makes an even bigger difference.

[_scotty_]

SWG255 asked about the importance of upgrading to a better power cord
and audioengr thoughtfully provided the mathematical basis for the improvements we sometimes hear. The higher the resolution the more obvious the improvement is. That being said if you can't hear an improvement in a double blind test than your shouldn't spend you money this way.The improvements possible are not subtle and are easy to hear .
Also just because a power cord is huge in size doesn't mean the design is a low inductance one.I build my own 9ga.starquad fluxtube design for about $30.00.The Marinco IEC  connector is about $18.00 from parts express.com , online.The end that goes into the wall can be obtained
from HomeDepot or Lowes for about $8.00. Adding capacitance/foot to offset the inherent inductance in the wire is critical to success.The cable Geometry used is all important.I have a
question for audioengr.In designing and listening to various powercords the jacketing around the bundle of wires seems to have very large impact
on how the cord sounds.In my case the polyolifin shrink tubing used on the outside acted to greatly reduce the space recreated by the system even though it is not in direct contact with the conductors.The wire itself is insulated with pvc and sounds great otherwise.Even Kynar shrink tubing
killed the space.Do you have any explanation or speclations on this subject.

[Psychicanimal]

When you say the cheap Absolute Power Cord outperforms the expensive salon cords, especially the cryo'd, do you mean the Absolute Power Cord is better and especially if it has been cryo'd?

As for the other questions about how a power cord effects the high-frequency extension of a component, or its soundstage presentation, I'll try to review the Audiogon, Audio Asylum and Empirical Audio sites for clues.

I think my skepticism remains intact, and my feeling that high-end cable prices are a great way to make some real money if one relies on P.T. Barnum's old axiom. Still, I'm not totally closed-minded about this, so the research continues...
 

Like Scotty said, the higher the resolution the more obvious the improvement is.   In my system, I can tell between my untreated Absolute Power Cords, Lak's 'half ass cryo'ed'--as we call them--Absolute Power cords and my Jena Labs deep LN2 immersion cryo'ed Absolute Power cord.  It's like three different power cords.  I would strongly suggest that you start with a 20 amp ACME silver plated, Jena Labs cryo'ed outlet.  It will be a great introduction as to what can be achieved very reasonably.  I think cryo'ed outlets are the most cost effective improvement in an audio system, short of speaker placement, which is free.  Just make sure polarity is right and the house wiring leads have been cleaned with a water based brass cleaner like Wright's.  Jay's suggestion is valid:  I burn in my audio grade outlets and power cords by using my refrigerator as load.

If I were you I would blow w/ canned air & clean all the Threshold's contacts and fuses/fuse holders with Deoxy and then preserve them w/ ProGold.  Then I'd try the ACME outlet.  After a while I would give something like Audioengr's power cord a shot (I'd try it for one night  and then run it on the fridge for a week).  I think Audioengr gives a 30 day money back satisfaction and if your Threshold is in good shape it would benefit tremendously from such a power cord.  I would not use a shielded cord like the Absolute on your amp.  I have a baby Threshold (Forté 4) and I use a very beefy unshielded power cord (11 ga, solid core copper, Teflon insulated), cryo'ed @ Jena Labs and tuned w/a Highwire Wirewrap.  It blows the Absolute away, but it was  quite more expensive.  Also, you can get a Wirewrap for $25 and experiment with your stock cords...

There's many places that do cryo but unfortunately there are no industry standards.  Keep reading--this will take quite some time but I guarantee you it's going to be worth it and cost effective.  You don't see any of the smart asses that advocate changing components all the time providing input in this thread, do you?

[Carlman]

With a dedicated outlet, I can tell a signifigant difference in improving power cords with my preamp and DAC.  I have added dedicated Belden 83802 cable for those devices and they reacted by providing better everything.  The transport and amp, however, made the least difference.  I'm using an $8 Volex for my amp at the moment.  I can't hear a 'signifigat' difference between it and any other cable I've tried however, I've only tried cheap cables that were either DIY recipes, Kimber, or the Volex.  If I ever get another 'designer' power cable around, I'll try it but, I don't expect it to make much difference.

My take on power cords is from my somewhat limited experience with them.  I have not experimented to the level that many here have but, I have experimented with good results.  But, I doubt I would ever be able to tell the difference between 3 good power cords.  To me, they either provide the power or they don't.  Whether they're resting on the ground, carpet, wood, nailed down, puttied, or glued.... I just don't think the super-minute differences are worth the effort.

Also, I highly doubt Audience is using $4/ft cable.  I bought some of their chassis wire and it was definitely different than anything I've seen.  On the outside it looks like any other cable but, the braid geometry was like nothing I've seen.  However, I didn't take apart any Audience power cables so, I don't know for sure.  

Good luck in your quest.... your approach is excellent and will yield excellent results.

[SWG255]

Psychicanimal:

I had a quick look at the Jena Labs web site, and indeed, i saw a cryo'd 20-amp outlet, but it didn't mention silver cladding. It was reasonably priced, as such things go, only about $100. Do you have a link to the outlet you mentioned above? The site also asked U.S. customers to contact one of Jena's dealers rather than them directly. Do you have a dealer or two to recommend?

Thanks again.

Like Scotty said, the higher the resolution the
more obvious the improvement is.   In my system, I can tell between my untreated Absolute Power Cords, Lak's 'half ass cryo'ed'--as we call them--Absolute Power cords and my Jena Labs deep LN2 immersion cryo'ed Absolute Power cord.  It's like three different power cords.  I would strongly suggest that you start with a 20 amp ACME silver plated, Jena Labs cryo'ed outlet.  It will be a great introduction as to what can be achieved very reasonably.  I think cryo' ...

[audioengr]

Scotty wrote:

In designing and listening to various powercords the jacketing around the bundle of wires seems to have very large impact on how the cord sounds.In my case the polyolifin shrink tubing used on the outside acted to greatly reduce the space recreated by the system even though it is not in direct contact with the conductors.The wire itself is insulated with pvc and sounds great otherwise.Even Kynar shrink tubing killed the space.Do you have any explanation or speclations on this subject.?

Of course.  The fields that surround the conductors extend well outside the bundle.  These fields interact with both the other conductors and the surrounding dielectrics.  Even though the highest field intensity lies between the + and - conductors, there are still field "lines" that extend outside.  These fields are affected by high-dielectric-constant materials because these materials tend to store energy from these fields and release it slowly when compared to low-dielectric-constant materials.  This can result in a smearing effect (Dielectric absorption).  In the case of a power cord, the currents are what is important.  These have spectra well above 60 Hz, so they will be subject to this "smearing" effect.  The best solution is to create a cable that has unimpeded fields around all conductors.

[_scotty_]

Scotty wrote:
Of course.  The fields that surround the conductors extend well outside the bundle.  These fields interact with both the other conductors and the surrounding dielectrics.  Even though the highest field intensity lies between the + and - conductors, there are still field "lines" that extend outside.  These fields are affected by high-dielectric-constant materials because these materials tend to store energy from these fields and release it slowly when compared to low-dielectric-constant materi ...

Thanks for your comments.I was seeking to reduce motor effects at large
current values obviously these effects are overstated in this application and I discovered that  I had done a great deal more harm than good.I had to remove the shrink tubing from everything, even the IC's were screwed up by it's presence. This must be a real problem packaging a consumer product in a safe manner with out destroying everything you tried to accomplish with the external jacketing which unfortunately cannot be made out of air.

[lonewolfny42]

Psychicanimal:

I had a quick look at the Jena Labs web site, and indeed, i saw a cryo'd 20-amp outlet, but it didn't mention silver cladding. It was reasonably priced, as such things go, only about $100. Do you have a link to the outlet you mentioned above? The site also asked U.S. customers to contact one of Jena's dealers rather than them directly. Do you have a dealer or two to recommend?

Thanks again.

Kevin at Solar Hifi lists Jena Labs as a product line-also has a Circle here - http://www.solarhifi.com/index.php He may be able to help you ? Almost forgot , Dan at ModWright lists Jena Labs ,  has a circle here  too !

[SWG255]

Thanks for the links, I'll have a look.

[Agisthos]

I notice some of you guys mentioning the Absolute Power Cord as being quite a good product.

I did a search on Audio asylum and this product seems to be cause for contention with quite a lot of people saying it is a garbage product not better than above average stock cords in comparison.

also some people have found a company that imports what looks to be the same product from china, same hospital grade connectors, same outside design and it cost 2.99 us per cord.

[JCC]

I own a ZR1600 and the power cord makes a big difference, however, I make my own from a parts list supplied by Stan Warren from Super Mods. Here it is:

1.  10 AWG Thhn Stranded - Available at Lowes or Home Depot
 
2.  Marinco IEC Connector - Available at Parts Express
 
3. A good hospital grade plug. You can buy these from Parts Express,  however, I often find them on Ebay for a fraction of the cost.  

4. I wrap it with a plastic cable wrap that I get from Radio Shack. Other cable wraps are available from Parts Express
 
Surprisingly, they take a while to break-in, however, Its a great cord
in whatever length that you desire. I don't know why the line cord makes a difference, except for the quality of the ground.

[Psychicanimal]

some people have found a company that imports what looks to be the same product from china, same hospital grade connectors, same outside design and it cost 2.99 us per cord.

To this date nobody has dared to split open the Absolute and the other cable and compare the gauge/stranding patterns of both.  Why?

My Jena Labs cryo'ed Absolute bested the $650 BMI Shark.  Once you have proper power delivery/noise control you'll find out the expenive power cords are unnecessary.  I strongly suggest having the Absolute properly cryo treated.