If I ever need a sub

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95bcwh

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #20 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:43 pm »
Selling the Moscode.:o  I'm actually thinking of buying another one  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

well you know, I've spent so much time tweaking my system to bring it to the level where it perfectly matches my taste. It's going to be a hussle to change the amp and try to start all over again. Besides, most hybrid amps that potentially sound "more Moscode than Moscode" probably cost a lot more than a Moscode.  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: And with 85dB speaker efficiency I do need a high power tube amp which normally cost a bomb! :dunno:

Barry,

If you are using the TacT properly, you should already have bass flat into the mid to low 20's with just the HT3's.

My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.

George




« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2007, 06:57 pm by 95bcwh »

nicksgem10s

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #21 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:43 pm »
I require excellent deep bass performance for my main system.  The Salk HT3 are the only speakers I have owned that I did not want to add a sub.  As long as you are feeding the HT3 enough high quality power with a quality source you will not be lacking in the bass department.  The dynamics are first rate compared to everything I have heard including Wilson Watt Puppy 6, Verity Audio Sarastro, etc.

mca

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #22 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:44 pm »
Quote
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode)

Curious about this as I thought the Moscode was the latest amp of choice?

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #23 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:45 pm »
yup, i know that.  but upright bass never sounded so real until i hooked up my vmps'.  mebbe it's cuz i usually have them crossed over at 70-80hz...  and, they seem to add that last bit of foundation to a lot of different music.  we're not yust talking "boom" here.  there's something to be said for a speaker whose -f3 is 17hz - everything is yust so much cleaner down low.  the effortlessness is what you really notice w/a good subwoofer system...

Admittedly I've yet to hear a subwoofered 2-channel system that really did it for me.  Maybe yours strikes the perfect balance.  My experience has been that anything above 50Hz or so can be localized away from the mains, and anything below 35Hz or so is noise, which can be more or less tight sounding.  Anyone would want that 'noise' if possible -- that's what ambience is after all (large bass drums and organ pipes aside).  But getting the balance right is beyond most people's means because of the deqx and room requirements.

zybar

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #24 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:50 pm »
Quote
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode)

Curious about this as I thought the Moscode was the latest amp of choice?

There is always something better...

George

95bcwh

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #25 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:51 pm »
One other thing if I may add to clarify: I don't mean to start this thread to imply that I do not get enough bass from my Salk HT3, in fact, let me re-iterate that I have no idea what will adding a sub do to improve the sound of my system. So it's by no means in disrespect to Jim's work. :wink: I'm a happy HT3 owner and I have ordered a second pair!

One of these days I will have to borrow fsimm's Tact 2.2X and his SVS sub (with TC Sound woofer) and see if it improves anything. If it does, I will upgrade my Tact 2.0S to a Tact Mini, because I can get a sweet deal :green: :green:





doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #26 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:52 pm »
josh,

you may be right - the ht3 may be quite different from normal 3-way speakers.  the fact that its 10" driver is in fact a sub driver, & that it's crossed over at a low 250hz, may mean it doesn't warrant the use of a sub.  i'd certainly agree this is the case in most rooms.  but, my last "real" room was ~26x38x8.5; my present room is ~18x38x8.  in larger rooms, there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion.  of course, i agree you need quality drivers...

best,

doug s.


With all due respect Doug, making conjecture about how the HT3's would benefit or not with the addition of stereo subs based on your passed experience with entirely different speakers is of little use.  I am pretty well certain the speaker you speak of (ones with 10"s) didn't have any where near the quality of woofer driver that the TC sound driver is.   The motor structure of a woofer is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will fair when asked to play bass and midbass simultaneously and if ever there were woofers that could go so with aplomb the TC sounds' woofers is among them.

Typically the reason why woofers playing low mucks up the midrange from the same speakers is usually do to distortion and subsequently inductive modulation.  The TC sound drivers have shorting rings like well made pro sound woofers and the better hi-fi woofers from Scan speak and a few others.  This makes them much less susceptible to such problems then standard woofer drivers.  It would be unwise IMO to try to make a guess at how the HT3 would improve with relief of bass material without experiencing it first hand. 

JoshK

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #27 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:55 pm »
...there's something to be said about the ability to move more air w/less distortion. 

I certainly agree with that!

MaxCast

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #28 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:04 pm »
Jim, or anyone who has done it,

If one were to add a pair of subs to the HT3's where would a good xo point be to start with?
Would you roll off the TC woofer or just xo the subs?

Marbles, how are you going to integrate your VCS's (VERY cool subs)?

martyo

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #29 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:09 pm »
I hope I didn't "rabbit trail" the thread. The posts by HT3 owners again calmed my fears.

Jim, please finish your replacements, I can think tooooo much, I need to be listening.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

JoshK

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #30 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:11 pm »
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment.  At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble.  Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.

I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.  Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range). 

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #31 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:16 pm »
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o.  depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...

ymmv,

doug s.

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #32 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:19 pm »
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o.  depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...

And, as pointed out, with HT3s you essentially do have stereo subs...just not ones that play all the way to 17Hz.

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #33 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:22 pm »
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment.  At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble.  Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.

I seem to hear of few people who cross to their sub(s) that low, for whatever reason.

Quote
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.  Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range). 

That's a great point, if you're still crossing really low.  But since 50 Hz fundamental's H2 is 100 you can localize that, and many people cross to their subs much higher than that.

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #34 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:22 pm »
which is why i clarified - if you cannot do stereo subs - especially w/speakers that are awreddy full-range - don't bother...

doug s.
one other point - for me anyways - is that, unless i could have a single sub centered & in the nearfield, i would rather do w/o.  depending on speakers/subs, i might still rather do w/o a single sub - stereo subs is the way to go - better soundstaging, less distortion, easier to integrate into a room...

And, as pointed out, with HT3s you essentially do have stereo subs...just not ones that play all the way to 17Hz.

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #35 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:24 pm »
another reason why you need stereo subs, imo.  even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers...  i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw... 

doug s.
I'm not Jim, but I'd start at 40hz xo and then experiment.  At 40hz, any 2nd distortion produced by the sub (at very high volume) will be at 80hz which is still non-localizeable, whereas H2 of a higher crossover point might be local'ble.  Here the sub is also only there for first octave material which isn't much in music, so most of the time you wouldn't even know it is there or on if you have set it up correctly.

I seem to hear of few people who cross to their sub(s) that low, for whatever reason.

Quote
I think a lot of the reasons why subs are localized or heard is due to their distortion, not their fundamental tones.  Or sometime their box talk (which can be both significant and significantly higher up in freq than the sub's operating range). 

That's a great point, if you're still crossing really low.  But since 50 Hz fundamental's H2 is 100 you can localize that, and many people cross to their subs much higher than that.

95bcwh

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #36 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:26 pm »
No disagreement here at all. Luckily a Tact Mini can help to add + integrate two additional subs no problem, 3 subs is out of reach...ouch! :lol: :lol:


another reason why you need stereo subs, imo.  even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers...  i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw... 

doug s.

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #37 on: 14 Dec 2007, 05:37 pm »
another reason why you need stereo subs, imo.  even as low as 40hz, i can tell where a single sub is, unless it's directly centered between the main speakers...  i used to use 24db/octave slope, now i am using 48db/octave, fwiw...

So it becomes a question of when it is worth it to go to the length of adding stereo subs.  With the HT3s the consensus seems to be maybe not, though nobody's saying a theoretical improvement is impossible.  The main issue I can see is if you just can't manage to get good balanced bass response wherever your mids and tweeters sound the best in the room.  Which is another way of saying hopefully you don't have a small room, and if you have a very big room hopefully it's still enough bass.  For everything in between I would guess the HT3s by themselves would be the most reasonable option (i.e. at least 95% of what you could ask for).

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #38 on: 14 Dec 2007, 06:09 pm »
Another point I forgot to pass along...

someone mentioned "in-room response".  This would be about 24Hz with the HT3's.

- Jim

DMurphy

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #39 on: 14 Dec 2007, 07:28 pm »
Wow.  A new 4-page thread and I can't think of anything to say.     Hmmm--oh yes--HAPPY HOLIDAYS!