If I ever need a sub

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95bcwh

If I ever need a sub
« on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:02 pm »
All,
I kind of run out of idea what kind of tweak I can use to improve my system. So I was wondering, if I ever want to add a sub to complement my Salk HT3, which would you recommend??? aa aa aa aa aa

I'm tempted by the idea of flat response between 20Hz to 30Hz.:drool: :drool: Although I'm haven't experienced what kind of difference it will make. :wink:

Thanks for sharing your idea.
barry

« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2007, 05:22 pm by 95bcwh »

zybar

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #1 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:13 pm »
Barry,

If you are using the TacT properly, you should already have bass flat into the mid to low 20's with just the HT3's.

My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.

George




fRsimms

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #2 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:19 pm »
Quote
My guess is that you be better off spending the money elsewhere (like replacing the Moscode) or on more music.

Yes, like sell it to me.  :drool:

PS. I am also known as fsimms. I just wound up registering twice and couldn't remember which alias I was using on my new computer.

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #3 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:26 pm »
With the exception of perhaps a pipe organ note or two, there really aren't any traditional instruments that play deeper than the HT3's.  So, for music, a sub is not really required and would not add much to the mix.  
For home theater effects, that is a different story, especially for action type films.

But the problem is, to have really flat response to 20Hz, you really need to move a lot of air.  That requires a very large subwoofer with a lot of power behind it.  

We recently built a pair of large 15" subs that will be powered by 1000 watts each.  The drivers alone were about 45 pounds.  They would certainly do the job.  But many smaller subs being marketed today are simply not capable of flat response to 20Hz without extensive EQ which robs you of power-handling.  At those frequencies, it is all about moving a lot of air and that takes cone area and a lot of power, especially if you want to use a driver that can work well in a reasonably-sized cabinet.

- Jim

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #4 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:38 pm »
I definitely agree with George that you should spend the money on more music first.

If you're truly bored I guess you could play with different amps...but I doubt you'd find something that sounded *meaningfully* better than the Moscode, which, based on its reputation, *should* be all the 2-channel amp anyone would ever need.  I mean, another several thousand dollars might get you something "different" or marginally better in one area or another, but at the end of the day what have you got for your money?  I would guess not a whole lot more.  Now bi-amping may be another story...you could try monoblocks...

Or you could decide to get into vinyl.

Or you could start building a second, smaller scale system for fun: standmounts, tubes, etc.

I guess I'm saying that with HT3s a subwoofer should be pretty low on the list of playtime explorations.

 :)

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #5 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:45 pm »
i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

martyo

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #6 on: 14 Dec 2007, 03:59 pm »
This is the kind of post that feeds my fears. I don't have my HT3's yet. What I do have is 4 12" woofers per side on an open baffle. A lot of air being moved and especially listening to live concerts (of amplified music), they really add to the live allusion. I've got that response your looking for now, although it is not very defined or quick. Then, right after we got back from RMAF where we "ordered" out HT3's there's an interview with Jim and he mention that POSSIBLY in the future there could be a new flagship for Salk Sound. One of the key elements of that speaker would be that bass response you're looking for. Owners of the HT3's have expressed to me that there is no shortage of low end with them, in fact they usually say the bass is one of the many strengths of the speakers. I lived many years with the Dahlquist (F3 of 37Hz according to the manufacturer) and as good as they could sound at times, that missing low end always left me unsatisfied. I know the HT3's F3 is 29HZ and that is a lot different than 37HZ but then I see your post and.................Is it enough bass when it's the most you've ever had and will it be lacking for me being used to FULL range?

Just processing my fears as I anxiously await the arrival of our HT3's.

Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?


jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #7 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:08 pm »
doug s.

i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

In many cases I would certainly agree with you.  In this case, however, I don't think crossing the HT3's at 80Hz would represent much of an improvement for two reasons.

First, the woofers used in the HT3's are actually subwoofer drivers in the first place.  They are 10" TC Sounds subwoofer drivers very similar to those used in the original Carver Sunfire subs.  So they can certainly handle low bass in a very clean, articulate and musical fashion. I doubt that relieving them of duty under 80Hz would positively impact their performance to any great degree above 80Hz.

Second, the gain and phase below 80Hz are right on the money and locked in via the crossover.  To set up a subwoofer this  accurately would require test and measurement gear of some kind.  For most people without such gear, integrating a sub as successfully in order to improve on the HT3's performance would be difficult.


- Jim

TomS

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #8 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:08 pm »
...

Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?
You might want to take a look at the thread on Marbles' "little" sub project with Christof.  That will be a beastly setup with HT3's.  Tom

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #9 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:10 pm »
see my post above for recommendations.

the speakers i was using prior to getting outboard amp/x-over & a pair of vnps larger subs were -2db at 20hz.  adding the subs improved the bass and the lower midrange, as the main speaker's 10" drivers didn't have to go below 70hz any more. 

i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...

if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome.  personally, i would order mine unpowered...  but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.

doug s.


This is the kind of post that feeds my fears. I don't have my HT3's yet. What I do have is 4 12" woofers per side on an open baffle. A lot of air being moved and especially listening to live concerts (of amplified music), they really add to the live allusion. I've got that response your looking for now, although it is not very defined or quick. Then, right after we got back from RMAF where we "ordered" out HT3's there's an interview with Jim and he mention that POSSIBLY in the future there could be a new flagship for Salk Sound. One of the key elements of that speaker would be that bass response you're looking for. Owners of the HT3's have expressed to me that there is no shortage of low end with them, in fact they usually say the bass is one of the many strengths of the speakers. I lived many years with the Dahlquist (F3 of 37Hz according to the manufacturer) and as good as they could sound at times, that missing low end always left me unsatisfied. I know the HT3's F3 is 29HZ and that is a lot different than 37HZ but then I see your post and.................Is it enough bass when it's the most you've ever had and will it be lacking for me being used to FULL range?

Just processing my fears as I anxiously await the arrival of our HT3's.

Anyway, sub recommendations for 95bcwh?



BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #10 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:10 pm »
Man.

I used to have speakers with an F3 of around 30 and an F10 of 20.  In room, the F10 is a meaningful stat btw.  It was PLENTY of bass!!  BOOM!!!  But my gauge is live acoustic, not amplified music, so different strokes I guess...Double subs on the HT3s?  Why not just buy some used Watt Puppies and save yourself all the crossover headache.

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #11 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:14 pm »
hi jim,

i never set up my subs w/o using test measurement gear.  in the past, this meant using a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer.  now, it means using a deqx.

curious, what is the x-over frequency/slope between the woofer & midrange driver on your speaker?

regards,

doug s.
doug s.

i don't agree w/all the sub naysayers here.  ime, subs will help even full-range speaker systems, if you actively cross over the main speakers.  if your ht3's don't see anything under 80hz or so, they will sound better above that level.  the improvement will be far greater than any negative influence the x-over itself may add to the picture.  plus, you can use tubes on the ht3's, & s/s on the subs.   8)

i am sold on the vmps larger subs - hard to beat fro musicality & extension, at the price, imo.  but, i strongly recommend a pair.  if you yust plan on doing a single sub, don't bother. 

doug s.

In many cases I would certainly agree with you.  In this case, however, I don't think crossing the HT3's at 80Hz would represent much of an improvement for two reasons.

First, the woofers used in the HT3's are actually subwoofer drivers in the first place.  They are 10" TC Sounds subwoofer drivers very similar to those used in the original Carver Sunfire subs.  So they can certainly handle low bass in a very clean, articulate and musical fashion. I doubt that relieving them of duty under 80Hz would positively impact their performance to any great degree above 80Hz.

Second, the gain and phase below 80Hz are right on the money and locked in via the crossover.  To set up a subwoofer this  accurately would require test and measurement gear of some kind.  For most people without such gear, integrating a sub as successfully in order to improve on the HT3's performance would be difficult.


- Jim

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #12 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:18 pm »
boom?  i am not talking about boom.  i am talking about having it sound like there's an acoustic upright bass in your room.  of course, when the music calls for "boom", that's ok, too...   8)

of course, in a small room, too much bass can overload it, & then it's hard to get anything *but* boom...  still, a pair of subs, sized for the room, will give you better bass response, imo - two subs will load the room more evenly, & their placement won't be tied to best placement for the main speakers...

doug s.
Man.

I used to have speakers with an F3 of around 30 and an F10 of 20.  In room, the F10 is a meaningful stat btw.  It was PLENTY of bass!!  BOOM!!!  But my gauge is live acoustic, not amplified music, so different strokes I guess...Double subs on the HT3s?  Why not just buy some used Watt Puppies and save yourself all the crossover headache.

martyo

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #13 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:23 pm »
Quote
i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...

if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome.  personally, i would order mine unpowered...  but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.

doug s.

Thanks for the input but one of the strengths of the HT3's is the seemless blending of the different drivers and high definition and resolution and my Carver woofers are about as clear as mud compared to them.

BrianM

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #14 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:25 pm »
boom?  i am not talking about boom.  i am talking about having it sound like there's an acoustic upright bass in your room.  of course, when the music calls for "boom", that's ok, too...   8)

of course, in a small room, too much bass can overload it, & then it's hard to get anything *but* boom...  still, a pair of subs, sized for the room, will give you better bass response, imo - two subs will load the room more evenly, & their placement won't be tied to best placement for the main speakers...

doug s.

doug, the lowest note on a four string double bass is 41 Hz.  31 if it's a five stringer.

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #15 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:27 pm »
then, check out vmps...   :wink:

doug s.

Quote
i am not sure how ob bass mates w/conwentional speakers, but i would definitely plan on using them, w/an outboard x-over & bass amp...

if you really wanna go over the top, vmps latest tower subs look pretty awesome.  personally, i would order mine unpowered...  but, until i luck across a fortune, i am more than satisfied w/my older tall-boy style vmps larger's.

doug s.

Thanks for the input but one of the strengths of the HT3's is the seemless blending of the different drivers and high definition and resolution and my Carver woofers are about as clear as mud compared to them.

doug s.

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Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #16 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:31 pm »
yup, i know that.  but upright bass never sounded so real until i hooked up my vmps'.  mebbe it's cuz i usually have them crossed over at 70-80hz...  and, they seem to add that last bit of foundation to a lot of different music.  we're not yust talking "boom" here.  there's something to be said for a speaker whose -f3 is 17hz - everything is yust so much cleaner down low.  the effortlessness is what you really notice w/a good subwoofer system...

doug s.


boom?  i am not talking about boom.  i am talking about having it sound like there's an acoustic upright bass in your room.  of course, when the music calls for "boom", that's ok, too...   8)

of course, in a small room, too much bass can overload it, & then it's hard to get anything *but* boom...  still, a pair of subs, sized for the room, will give you better bass response, imo - two subs will load the room more evenly, & their placement won't be tied to best placement for the main speakers...

doug s.

doug, the lowest note on a four string double bass is 41 Hz.  31 if it's a five stringer.

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #17 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:32 pm »
hi jim,

i never set up my subs w/o using test measurement gear.  in the past, this meant using a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer.  now, it means using a deqx.

That is exactly what I was referring to.  You would have no problem.  Neither would Barry with his TacT unit.  But most people do not have access to this type of equipment and/or would not know how to use it properly.  In those cases, they would never end up with integration as good as is built-in with the HT3's.  That is why we designed it the way we did.

Quote
curious, what is the x-over frequency/slope between the woofer & midrange driver on your speaker?

About 250Hz, 2nd order.

- Jim

jsalk

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #18 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:39 pm »
Just for clarification purposes, I don't think most people realize how low even a 30Hz tone is.  As I said before, other than perhaps an occassional pipe organ note, there are no traditional musical instruments that play any lower.  And the HT3's were designed to scale low bass appropriately. 

So if we're talking music here, I just don't think a subwoofer would add anyting to the mix.  You would simply be substituting one low bass source for another.  And in many cases, the quality would not be as good.  TC drivers are among the most musical and articulate subwoofer drivers available.

- Jim

JoshK

Re: If I ever need a sub
« Reply #19 on: 14 Dec 2007, 04:42 pm »
With all due respect Doug, making conjecture about how the HT3's would benefit or not with the addition of stereo subs based on your passed experience with entirely different speakers is of little use.  I am pretty well certain the speaker you speak of (ones with 10"s) didn't have any where near the quality of woofer driver that the TC sound driver is.   The motor structure of a woofer is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will fair when asked to play bass and midbass simultaneously and if ever there were woofers that could go so with aplomb the TC sounds' woofers is among them.

Typically the reason why woofers playing low mucks up the midrange from the same speakers is usually do to distortion and subsequently inductive modulation.  The TC sound drivers have shorting rings like well made pro sound woofers and the better hi-fi woofers from Scan speak and a few others.  This makes them much less susceptible to such problems then standard woofer drivers.  It would be unwise IMO to try to make a guess at how the HT3 would improve with relief of bass material without experiencing it first hand.