[chrismercurio]

Rick,

You are one of the few speaker builders I know of that has used the 23W SS sub in designs. Can you give a subjective opinion of the fidelity of the woofer compared to the Aura products? I'm not that interested in overall SPL, more sound quality.

Thanks,

C

[Imperial]

The 23W/4557T00 ?
It has a really low fs as well. 20,5hz!
It's a fun driver as it has no 2'nd harmonic...

I'd say the Scan Speak is a texture master.
By this we think of the Scan Speak as having no "warmth" of it's own (The absence of 2'nd harmonic..).
This is audible so that bass instruments say acoustical bass, you can more easily hear how all parts of the instrument contributes to the total vibration of the instrument. Yet the instrument sounds like it's "dry"/"Realism ...
The Aura Sound woofers have a more JBL'ish? type of "warmth" ... Eh? Gives you a more "mass and weight feel...of the sound".
This is most likely depending on a lot of factors.. and is more of a character difference than an actual BIG difference.
It should be perceptible.. ever so lightly however.
The 23w is something like 7db less sensitive than your typical Aura Sound driver, that is also a thing to remember..
You cannot just use any amp with this black hole of a woofer! You need serious torq!
Another thing is that the 23w is a bit insensitive to what kind of stuffing you use in the cabinet, this is reported some places on DIY
forums. Uhm, so using wool won't give it much more warmth sort of speak.

Say playing the song "Sledgehammer" from Peter Gabriels So album (What a super album!!!)
I'm guessing here, but I'm gonna try to word this..
The linianite Subs should (by using the 23w's) achieve a Levin that plays more free of the soundfield, with a more sense as to what string is actually being struck. Trying to figure out what string Levin is striking is a bit of a problem as he,especially on "Sledgehammer", appears to be playing a one string bass... (I believe it was a 4 string'd Music Man Sabre)
I'm guessing a quad of 23w's will nail it with regards to what finger is pulling what string...
Again... I'm trying to iterate a "text" here with regards to how one can put into words the sonics of a sub driver...
Which granted must be really "deep stuff to try to write..." ...
Anyway.  Lets hope i didn't get to far out on the deep end here...  Ps 42:7




Imperial

[Rick Craig]

Rick,

You are one of the few speaker builders I know of that has used the 23W SS sub in designs. Can you give a subjective opinion of the fidelity of the woofer compared to the Aura products? I'm not that interested in overall SPL, more sound quality.

Thanks,

C

The 23W and the NS10-513 are really for different applications so it would be difficult to compare them. The 23W is designed for small sealed enclosures and the 513 for medium size ported cabinets. Sensitivity is higher with the Aura and bandwidth slightly greater making it more suitable for 3-way applications. Both have excellent sound quality and are very robust - the 513 survived several beatings (including one by our resident model Lonewolf) at the recent RMAF Denver show 

I also have on hand the Aura NS10-794 but haven't run any tests yet. The system I'm using it in will have two per side and I'm really looking forward to hearing the results from these monsters. 

[Rick Craig]

The 23W/4557T00 ?
It has a really low fs as well. 20,5hz!
It's a fun driver as it has no 2'nd harmonic...

I'd say the Scan Speak is a texture master.
By this we think of the Scan Speak as having no "warmth" of it's own (The absence of 2'nd harmonic..).
This is audible so that bass instruments say acoustical bass, you can more easily hear how all parts of the instrument contributes to the total vibration of the instrument. Yet the instrument sounds like it's "dry"/"Realism ...
The Aura Sound woofers have a more JBL'ish? type of "warmth" ... Eh? Gives you a more "mass and weight feel...of the sound".
This is most likely depending on a lot of factors.. and is more of a character difference than an actual BIG difference.
It should be perceptible.. ever so lightly however.
The 23w is something like 7db less sensitive than your typical Aura Sound driver, that is also a thing to remember..
You cannot just use any amp with this black hole of a woofer! You need serious torq!
Another thing is that the 23w is a bit insensitive to what kind of stuffing you use in the cabinet, this is reported some places on DIY
forums. Uhm, so using wool won't give it much more warmth sort of speak.

Say playing the song "Sledgehammer" from Peter Gabriels So album (What a super album!!!)
I'm guessing here, but I'm gonna try to word this..
The linianite Subs should (by using the 23w's) achieve a Levin that plays more free of the soundfield, with a more sense as to what string is actually being struck. Trying to figure out what string Levin is striking is a bit of a problem as he,especially on "Sledgehammer", appears to be playing a one string bass... (I believe it was a 4 string'd Music Man Sabre)
I'm guessing a quad of 23w's will nail it with regards to what finger is pulling what string...
Again... I'm trying to iterate a "text" here with regards to how one can put into words the sonics of a sub driver...
Which granted must be really "deep stuff to try to write..." ...
Anyway.  Lets hope i didn't get to far out on the deep end here...  Ps 42:7




Imperial

Actually the db difference between the 23W and Aura woofers is less than 7db - plus there are also two different Aura 10" drivers.

[Imperial]

Yes, I've seen the sensitivety quoted as something in the 79 - 82.5db zone...for the 23w. I'm not sure what the real number is.
This here speaker uses Aura drivers and Ice driving them. That's about as close as I've heard them.

Imperial

[Rick Craig]

Yes, I've seen the sensitivety quoted as something in the 79 - 82.5db zone...for the 23w. I'm not sure what the real number is.

Imperial

The problem is that manufacturers don't all use the same standard for rating sensitivity so it makes it difficult for consumers to compare. Scan-Speak tends to be fairly conservative and I think alot of people shy away from the 23W because of the low rating. I've driven it with a variety of amps and had no problem with getting enough output.

[chrismercurio]

To use the 23W it in a three way, would you need to go active? Or could it work with two per side in parallel for what would still be moderately low sensitivity?

Thanks for your time,

C

[Rick Craig]

To use the 23W it in a three way, would you need to go active? Or could it work with two per side in parallel for what would still be moderately low sensitivity?

Thanks for your time,

C

It's a 4-ohm driver so running two in parallel isn't a good idea. Active would be excellent with one per side or two woofers in series.

[JoshK]

I've been interested in these drivers too.  What's the quoted sensitivity of the 23W?  I know the quoted one for Aura is quite low, something like 84db/w (but 4ohm).   That translates to something like 87db/2.83v/m. 

Thanks for your comments on useability Rick, that is useful.  I like the very wideband aspect of the Aura, but SS has an excellent reputation on their motors.

[chrismercurio]

82 db 2.83V/1m @ 4 ohms

Here is the datasheet: http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=107

It was reviewed in K+T (Klang und Ton) in 2/2006 but I don't have a copy.

Some translations from another forum:

- (almost) flat up to 1kHz.
- 15 dB peak at 6.5 kHz
- 3rd order harmonics from 100 Hz to 1kHz at about 0,1% at 90dB
- 5th order harmonics from 100 Hz to 1kHz everywhere lower than 0,03% at 90dB
- very low sensitivity at 79dB/1W/1m in low-frequency range. (about 85/86 dB is normal for woofers. DON'T compare it to the sensitivity at a few 100 Hz that is usually given)
- it goes LOWWWWW.... : reflex: 63 liter, tuned to 17 Hz with a 60mm diameter tunnel, 440mm long gives a -3 dB of 14 Hz.
Closed in 18 liter, with a 2.000µF capacitor in series gives a -3dB of 25 Hz.

[Jazz and Baroque]

- it goes LOWWWWW.... : reflex: 63 liter, tuned to 17 Hz with a 60mm diameter tunnel, 440mm long gives a -3 dB of 14 Hz.
Closed in 18 liter, with a 2.000µF capacitor in series gives a -3dB of 25 Hz.

Why would you put a capacitor in series with a sub-woofer???

[chrismercurio]

I just cut and paste the "translation". It didn't make sense to me either....unless it is passive system.

C

[Jazz and Baroque]

even on passive, isn't a series capacitor a high-pass filter??

[JoshK]

even on passive, isn't a series capacitor a high-pass filter??

Yes.

[Imperial]

Well it's a subsonic filter... I guess! (LP rumble?)
It is most likely not an ideal filter however...again I guess.


Imperial

[Rick Craig]

- it goes LOWWWWW.... : reflex: 63 liter, tuned to 17 Hz with a 60mm diameter tunnel, 440mm long gives a -3 dB of 14 Hz.
Closed in 18 liter, with a 2.000µF capacitor in series gives a -3dB of 25 Hz.

Why would you put a capacitor in series with a sub-woofer???

  It's rare but I have seen this done on small monitors to prevent the woofer from too large of an excursion. Obviously with this driver that's not needed and 18L is too small of an enclosure for it.

[gitarretyp]

- it goes LOWWWWW.... : reflex: 63 liter, tuned to 17 Hz with a 60mm diameter tunnel, 440mm long gives a -3 dB of 14 Hz.
Closed in 18 liter, with a 2.000µF capacitor in series gives a -3dB of 25 Hz.

Why would you put a capacitor in series with a sub-woofer???

  It's rare but I have seen this done on small monitors to prevent the woofer from too large of an excursion. Obviously with this driver that's not needed and 18L is too small of an enclosure for it.

I think the series cap is to tame the resonant peak from the high Qtc alignment, allowing one to use a smaller box. It provides excursion protection, too.

[Rick Craig]

- it goes LOWWWWW.... : reflex: 63 liter, tuned to 17 Hz with a 60mm diameter tunnel, 440mm long gives a -3 dB of 14 Hz.
Closed in 18 liter, with a 2.000µF capacitor in series gives a -3dB of 25 Hz.

Why would you put a capacitor in series with a sub-woofer???

  It's rare but I have seen this done on small monitors to prevent the woofer from too large of an excursion. Obviously with this driver that's not needed and 18L is too small of an enclosure for it.

I think the series cap is to tame the resonant peak from the high Qtc alignment, allowing one to use a smaller box. It provides excursion protection, too.

Yes, the cap will reduce the peak some but then they'll never get close to -3db @25hz as claimed 

[Val]

Rick, what do you think of the Dayton RSS265 10" aluminum woofer? It looks a lot like the Aurasounds.

The Aurasound 794 is almost three times more expensive than the 513, it should be a beast!

[Rick Craig]

Rick, what do you think of the Dayton RSS265 10" aluminum woofer? It looks a lot like the Aurasounds.

The Aurasound 794 is almost three times more expensive than the 513, it should be a beast!

The Dayton is actually quite different in design with a traditional motor and voice coil that extends beyond the gap. The Aura has the underhung neo motor which is more linear. I do have a Dayton on hand but haven't got around to testing it yet. I just finished up measuring two powered subs using the Aura 794 15" and hate to see them leave.