[TheChairGuy]

TCG,
I musta missed a thread about you getting a SL1200. Is the rega arm going on immediately or will you live with stock for a while and then compare? What are your plans with the Technics TT?

have fun playing around and listening!
ed

Hey Ed....I'll try the Technics first with the stock arm to get a sense of it, then do some bastard-ization 

ricmon - based on my time with the VPI, I think your method is money better spent.  Much of the benefit of a heavy platter and even an outer ring seems wasted......without some kind of speed control that de-couples the performance of the motor speed for irregularities of AC from your mains.

A Pro-ject, a Rega or it's variants, with a good arm (Rega, etc) with tightly regulated speed control seems to be money well spent with belt drive.  $120.00 + the fairly reasonable cost of the Pro-ject midline decks seems an excellent equation for value.

That's why I'm keeping the VPI around as a test bed...when and if the day comes and I want to invest in a $700-$1000 SDS speed controller for it, I should see some excellent gains in sonics.

Keep in mind...a quartz lock, DC Servo, direct drive deck machine already exists today for under $500 in the Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight, so-so wiring, too many joints, or even plastic armboards that resonate - all or most are likely causes).  All of these serve to hold back the performance of the DD decks, I think.

I will find out shortly and try to put my suspicions to rest for a while.....

John

[lcrim]

Hi John:
I need to point out that there are legions of users here and on the Asylum, who would find the following statement utter blather:

Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight

The Technics tonearm, when accompanied by the KAB damping tray and the tonearm rewire leaves little to be desired.  I don't usually take issue w/ you but you are on record as being a proponent of this double gimbaled arm as well.  The fact that you had a highly modded version of the Rega in your possession already seems to have curiously altered your viewpoint.  I don't think its necessary to put down the one, to build up the other.  No offense, but the Technics 1200 tonearm especially when damped and rewired gives up very little to other much more costly tonearms.

[Wayner]

After spending a few nights with the Technics armed with the Grado Gold, I have to ask myself one question. Why does the Grado sound good in this table, but not in any other that I own? I believe that it is because of the low mass tone arm. Is the technics tone arm a bad design? It surely isn't an SME, but neither was the price. I think I like it and I like it alot.

I can't complain about my VPI Hw-19jr's platter speed. I do have the seemless belt and I use talc on the belt. The VPI has the AudioQuest PT-6 tonearm on it with stock cables and that machine is still top dog at this house. Armed with the Audio Technica, the sound stage is wide and deep, the rumble and noise are the lowest ever and the bass is very stong, stonger than ever (not overpowering) with the new VTA setting.

For now, my tweeking will be in the area of perfect geometry. I just can't start altering the design until I know that every aspect of set-up is correct.

May the turntable gods be merciful to us all before we all go mad.

Wayner  aa

[TheChairGuy]

Hi John:
I need to point out that there are legions of users here and on the Asylum, who would find the following statement utter blather:

Technics....which really is, I think, held back by sub-standard arm assembly (some kind of combination of weak armtube, so-so bearings, poorly designed counterweight

The Technics tonearm, when accompanied by the KAB damping tray and the tonearm rewire leaves little to be desired.  I don't usually take issue w/ you but you are on record as being a proponent of this double gimbaled arm as well.  The fact that you had a highly modded version of the Rega in your possession already seems to have curiously altered your viewpoint.  I don't think its necessary to put down the one, to build up the other.  No offense, but the Technics 1200 tonearm especially when damped and rewired gives up very little to other much more costly tonearms.

Larry,

Who you kiddin' - you LOVE taking issue with me   

Hey, I was referring to the stock Technics arm....fluid damping and re-wiring probably does improve it a whole bit. But, that would be another $300 to go that route.  I know fluid damping alone reduces rumble and helps tracking with most cartridges...my humble experiments over time have borne that out. It, alone, reduces tonearm chatter....something all gimballed tonearms are prone to

As I already have the Rega (and find it to be an exceptional arm - at least, updated with all it has), and the Origin Live armboard was $75 and my labor is free on a second hand 1200 I picked up for $150.00 on ebay...it's a sensible choice for me.  I'm only talking about my situation - not yours or anybody elses. 

If you currently enjoy what you own out there...more power to ya'.  But, I just don't stop at 'good enough' in audio matters and I don't want second-hand knowledge on some matters of importance to me....I want the best combination of sonics for sane money.  That's me, that's how I operate.

The Rega 250 might only be special in that it has one continuous length of wire from cartridge to rca...less hurdles for feeble phono currents to hop over until it reaches it's amplification stage. I can almost guarantee you that less joints = less noise...and less noise is good for vinyl sonics 

Until you try one side by side with the Technics arm....what you are saying is blather.  I'm in a position to find out if the stock Technics arm, once and for all, is a holdback for greater performance real soon.

I may even go real nutz and get THAT arm re-wired and add a damping pot (as it still can be used when removed from the Technics) from KAB.  Then, and only then, I can compare the two very fairly. Care to send me yours instead? 

Please sit back and stop doubting my reasoning or speculate on some curious subjectivity you think I have.  I am here to find the best possible combination of deck and arm for sane money (I consider that to be under $1000) and report on it here.  I hold no allegiance to anybody, any maker or anything...I seek only the sonic truth of matters.

What I ultimately want for this bastard Technics-to-be is to cook up some kind of fluid damping system for the Rega (along with ridding of it of the black powder coating and fill the innards with low density polyurethane foam to reduce ringing)....and then send it in to Kevin for the outboard motor and strobe disabler 

John

[Listens2tubes]

OH Man John you have the fever! It's great you doing all this comparing and modding and tweaking. I have found playing 100-125 hours is needed to let new a cartridge and/or cables to properly settle-in. Usually there is a period around 75-85 hours where everything sounds wrong, by 100 things begin to progressively get better. Of coarse this was with Dynavector 10X5 , Karat D17Mk2 and Cardas tonearm cable, your mileage may vary.

Please document your steps to adding the silicone fluid trough to the RB250 with VTAF. I have marked my VTAF thumbwheel in thousandths thanks to the 100 edge notches and 25 thousandths rise per revolution. This making readjustment for different thickness records easy to annotate and reset. Question is where to place the trough that is won't interfere with turning or reading the thumbwheel? My Systemdek IIX's armboard is somewhat restrictive in it size, shape and being below the surface (which gets us back to size), so you may have an advantage.

Thanks for some great reading.

[TheChairGuy]

LT2,

You're kinda' sick yerself...and I mean that in the kindest vinyl-phool way possible 

Damping troughs....hmmmm... best place for them is ahead of the cartridge/tonearm assembly (a la Townshend).  A year spent with a Rock TT almost 20 years ago taught me that pretty conclusively. It wouldn't interfere with your VTA adjuster that way. 

That's what I'm after ultimately....might take me a year to figure that one out, tho.  But, if I do, I promise to chronicle it for ya'll 

btw - I put the JVC DD back in rotation....and it holds my interest better than the VPI set-up.  However, due to several possible factors, the VPI clearly has cleaner resolution across the sonic spectrum.  Drive systems, armboard construction, tonearm differences, one piece wiring, dropped or not counterweights and cartridge differences all play into that of course....but there is no question in my mind that the VPI set-up has higher resolution...but the JVC makes more convincing sounding music.

Timing matters....and without regulated speed control I don't think truly convincing music can come from any turntable no matter how good it is otherwise 

John

[directdriver]

I absolutely see NO shame in preferring the JVC.  Why are people surprised at all?  It must be the price, isn't it?  I have the same JVC QL-F6 and other JVC models and various DD tables from other brands.  I prefer this JVC over even the Technics SP-10mk2 DD classic.  JVC QL series turntables, to my ears, consistently have smoother presentation and more musicality than any belt-drive I have owned.  It may not have the lush robust tonal character of a good idler drive table but the speed stability and smooth texture make up for that and it's good enough for me on a long term basis. I am quite please to read about your result, TheChairGuy.  Your experience mirrors mine.  The QL-A2 and the F6 both use Victor's excellent coreless motor.  It is to my ears, most turntables using coreless motors have this distinctive smooth sound that I am quite enamored with, only the Sony and Denon AC motor with magnetic tape head servo equals that smoothness.  It's about time audiophiles start opening up their ears to the possibility that a lowly DD turntable can actually sound as good if not better than a well known brand of BD table.  All drive systems can sound good and I don't think one is superior than others but there's apparent bias in the audiophile community towards BD and DD gets short shrift.  Just trust your own ears.  Stop the belt-drive snobbery already!

[Wayner]

LT2,

I would try a couple drops of 1000 centistroke liquid silicone on the horizontal bearings. I have done this to my RB300, and this thing tracks really nice.

Wayner 

[opnly bafld]

As reported on by BFS http://boundforsound.com/

Can you get your hands on any reel to reel tape?
Try using it as a "belt" for your TT (make sure the recording side is facing out- clear packing tape can be used to bind the ends together).
The best qualities of belt drive and direct drive in one table?

Lin

[lazydays]

there's an even better belt if you can find one narrow enough. It has fiberglass threads in it, and is impossible to stretch. Anyway I get my belts these days JoAnne Fabrics for less than a dollar a spool, and there's zero stretch.
gary

[opnly bafld]

there's an even better belt if you can find one narrow enough. It has fiberglass threads in it, and is impossible to stretch. Anyway I get my belts these days JoAnne Fabrics for less than a dollar a spool, and there's zero stretch.
gary

Any more details?
What is it called?

Thanks,
Lin

[lazydays]

it's just a thin flat drive belt used on high speed grinders. They make them in different widths and lengths. Try the Dayco or Goodyear website. I know I've seen them as narrow as 1/2", and maybe .025" thick. Problem with recording tape is stretch. On a light platter it might work OK, but on the heavy weight ones I don't thing it would last long. In all my experimenting, string drives always came out on top. "O" rings for belt drives were always the very worst.
gary

[opnly bafld]

Marty says the r2r tape was pre-stretched by manufacturers to avoid problems in recording/playback. He has been using one for several months with no problems so far (of course you can easily stretch the tape with your hands, but that is much more force than it will see turning a platter).

Your solution seems to be a better way to go assuming the correct size can be found.

Thanks,
Lin

[BobM]

I think a belt needs a little compliance to work best. Mylar tape may make the best coupling between TT platter and motor but I think that also leads to some motor noise being transmitted through the tape to the platter. A thread drive on the other hand has some compliance, but less than a rubber belt, and won't transfer unwanted enetgy to the platter. And it can be tightened enough to spin a weighty platter and keep it at a stable speed, while still letting centrifical force and the mass of the platter do its thing to keep speed accurate.

I know my string definitely sounds better than my old rubber belt, but unfortunately I don't have a proper spindle to test out a mylar belt, so I would be interested in hearing from someone who has actually done this experiment to chime in and tell us your resolts. Not theory, but a real practical experiment. I do know some one I trust who has tested out the string vs a direct drive wheel and says the sting and wheel both sound the same, making me believe in my string theory (apologies to any physicists here).

Thanks,
Bob

[lazydays]

first I must apologise for not using a quote as I've tried to post twice this afternoon without any luck on my part. It just will not allow me to do a quote.

I've found that reel to reel tape stretches no matter who tells you it won't. But there is a better tape to record on if you can find some. It's thicker and has less stretch properties. Still all I've ever heard of is in 35mm widths! Another that would interest me into at least trying it one time (now everybody tape a very deep beath here and don't laugh at me too hard!!) is silk ribbon. Just like you tie a bow for a gift with! It won't stretch, and is very supple. Now all we need to do is to figure out a way to couple the ends together without it becomming too stiff. I have an idea, but the next problem is finding an extremely flexable expoxy.

     I use nothing but threads as some folks on here will tell you. Just never found anything better on two of my three tables. Thread will transfer some energy, but not a lot once you understand  what you can and canot do with it. Recommend pure silk for a starter, and experiment from there.
gary