[TheChairGuy]

By having an Ortofon X5-MC on it in place of my beloved Grado.

So, I now have a Grado on the VPI...with an appropriate tonearm to match (fluid damped)....along with a new 1.5lb+ outer platter and VTAF. 

I love doing this tweeky crap....the tunes are playing in the background all day so I get to hear it all the time.

When I have an inspiration....I just slam the phone down on the Wal-mart or Costco buyer (ha!)....and get to it 

John

[meby]

I do not know about rigging the competition. My pioneer pl-530 DD which I paid $100 for from a local retailer and my Sumiko Blue point II in my humble opinion smoked my other belt drive turntables including Nottingham Spacedeck with Shelter 501 mkII, Kuzma Stabi-s with Stogi-s and Shelter 501 MKII.  I never believed a DD could compete with belt-drive.  But I have finally found the missing ingredient I always felt was missing with belt drives, perfect pitch stability.  I know the background noise level maybe slightly higher but man the sounds coming out of my system from a $100 turntable are amazing.  Now I need to save up money and buy an SP-10 or something of that pedigree.

[TheChairGuy]

I was of the same opinion originally, too....but now I want to see how far one must go with belt drive to compete with my $100 JVC QL-F6 direct-driver.

What I'm listening to right now (the VPI) still doesn't compare. Pretty soon the excuses will run dry and the pitch stability of direct drive, for vastly lower costs, will likely run out.

However, I'm totally agnostic about the outcome.....I just want one to conclusively be better than another for sane kinda' money.  Already, the better value to me, seems to be direct drive.

What you want from your TT is to mimic all the best that CD has to offer...without the downsides.  Ultra-speed stable drive seems to provide the rhythmic drive to mimic the best of CD, with all the analog grandeur. The cheapest way to get that is direct drive.....one must invest in fairly massive platters and regulated speed control with belt drivers - taking the price well outside of $1000.00 with cartridge.

So, I'll soon have a Technics SL-1200 MK. II shorn with a full out modded Rega 250 on it to see if it mates the best drive mechanism with an excellent tonearm. I really think the Rega 250 is special......whether it's the one-piece end-to-end wiring or something else....my Ortofon X5-MC never sounded so full, bassy/ballsy and tuneful as with the Rega carrying it.

Good Tune-age 

John

[TheChairGuy]

I've now lived with the VPI for two straight weeks now.

It's level, it's got a DIY SAMA (motor is de-ccoupled from the plinth with only the belt as attachment), the VTA set, and it's on brass toes pushed downward into a thick maple block.  The same downstream cables and amps have been used. It has been shorn with several cartridges.

Most recently I invested $200+ in a buddies outer record clamp so that the record is in innate contact with the mat at ALL times 

Two tonearms have been used with that variety of cartridges has been used.  An Audioquest PT-6 with Expressimo (dropped0 Heavyweight and VTAF from Pete Riggle and a super-modded, Rega RB250 with Expressimo stub, (dropped) Heavyweight and VTA, & Incognito re-wire.

I can conclusively say that.....I'm more bored with vinyl now than any time in the past two years since my return to it.  Those two years, not coincidentally, were with two of the first DC servo direct drive TT's I've ever owned 

Yes, the VPI seems a bit quieter during in-between passages.......but a yawning boredom isn't worth that.

Please again know I am completely agnostic to the drive types....I simply wanted one to prevail handily over the other.  And, direct drive has...at least DC Servo, quartz locked direct drive as provided by Matsushita (Technics and JVC's parent company).  Damp the platter, give it some mass, and place it on good isolation.  Your gonna' get some great/exciting tunes for reasonable audiophool money.

AC synchronous drive units, combined with belt propulsion systems, make for average vinyl playback in my mind.  Without tightly regulated speed control (or at least DC motor drive that de-couples the drive from fluctuations in Alternating Current line), vinyl is inferior to CD playback for me.  Now, I could spend another $700-$1000 for VPI's SDS, that combines a perfect 60hz sine wave with filtration...but it's $1000 

For a vastly less sum in total, you can get a DC or AC Servo, quartz locked drive from several makers and be done with that issue from the start.

I've done my due diligence here on this topic...and I think the Japanese got it right almost 30 years ago.

My used Technics SL-1200 Mk. II arrives later this week.  The Origin Live/Rega armboard came in last week from the UK. The two will get acquainted with one another shortly I hope 

btw, I think the stock Technics arm is probably quite decent (I'll listen to it stock first before hacking at it).  But the Rega with it's dropped counter weight and cartridge to rca one piece wiring is something special.  If bearing friction is roughly similar...then, for me, it's these two features of the Rega that will likely set it apart from the otherwise fine Technics arm.

The less hurdles you ask puny cartridge voltages to vault over the better - all other things being equal.  One length wiring, shielded, from cartridge to preamp (no step) keeps noise to a bare minimum...all the better to enjoy vinyl to its fullest. I think the bearing friction and even the body rigidity of the two arms is probably comparable....it's the 'purer' transmission line and dropping the counterweight below the tonearm geometry that sets the Rega apart in this endeavor.

Proof is in the pudding as they say....and I'll find out shortly 

[Wayner]

OK John,

The Vikings aren't on until 3 playing the 49ers, so that gives me 2 hours. Perhaps you remember I picked up a Technics SL-Q2 direct drive this summer. I haven't done a thing to it. I have 3 cartridges I could put into it:

Grado Gold, Sumiko Blue Point Special or the Rega Elys.

I don't think this table is par with your JVC or a Technics SL-1200MKII, as they go for el cheapo on dopebay, but the arm looks fairly decent. By the way, synchronous motors lock onto the 60 cycle sine wave. 

I have also found that cheap turntable belts that are sold on dopebay do not have uniform thickness and can account for speed variation, as well as dirty belt drives and rims.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner,

Try it.......it might be quite telling experience.  Nope - I didn't realize or remember you picked one up.

As it has no arm damping, don't shoe the Grado on it.  Go for the Sumiko 

If you fill it with some mass within and damp the platter....you're in for quite revelation I think, as I was (the first DD unit was the JVC QL-A2...a real cheapie, too)

The VPI, even with DIY SAMA, outer ring platter on a now 14.5 lb flywheel of a platter, super-modded Rega arm, good isolation, et al doesn't even add up to that musical integrity and impact the cheapie JVC did for me 

Yes, I know AC synchronous motors lock on to 60hz sine wave....but a clipped 60hz sine wave is what you most often get from your mains.  For $700-$1000 more (which, as I'm a nut, I might actually invest in one day to see this madness thru) it might behave like a vastly cheaper DC Servo, Quartz Lock Direct Drive in many regards.  But, ohhhhh, the costliness.  It aches me right down to my cheapo genetic code 

I know to some this sounds like a rant...but I swear I am not biased (I like the looks of the VPI very much, incidentally).  What I have found is far aside from any subjectivity...in fact I've gone over and above to stack the deck in favor of the VPI I feel.  Still, no dice 

[Wayner]

Forgive me Master, I shoe'd in the Grado.................MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally found a table that likes the Grado Gold. I've been listening to Stephane Grappelli since I've set it up and haven't heard a discouraging word...er note yet!



Maybe this isn't such a crappy table after all?

Here is the tone arm pillar.



Wayner

[lazydays]

I do not know about rigging the competition. My pioneer pl-530 DD which I paid $100 for from a local retailer and my Sumiko Blue point II in my humble opinion smoked my other belt drive turntables including Nottingham Spacedeck with Shelter 501 mkII, Kuzma Stabi-s with Stogi-s and Shelter 501 MKII.  I never believed a DD could compete with belt-drive.  But I have finally found the missing ingredient I always felt was missing with belt drives, perfect pitch stability.  I know the background noise level maybe slightly higher but man the sounds coming out of my system from a $100 turntable are amazing.  Now I need to save up money and buy an SP-10 or something of that pedigree.

I live in Indiana, if we're close I'd love to do a shootout. But alas I already know the winner. Pick your color; silver or black, the results are the same!
gary

[ohenry]

Wayner,
I put a longhorned Grado green on a Technics SL-Q303 (very similar to your Technics) and it works great.  I listened to it last night at my girlfriend's place and it was very enjoyable.  If I could only get her to clean and handle her records better... I guess you can't have it all. 

I'm glad to hear that you have found the Grado/Technics magic as well.

[Wayner]

Not bad for a 25 year old turntable.

W

[bacobits1]

As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.

NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.

Enjoy listening to them.

Den

[ohenry]

As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.

NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.

Enjoy listening to them.

Den

Yep, I know the drill.  VPI, speed stability, and TCG consistently reporting great things about DD turntables.  I'm going to have to quit reading this circle, it's making me want to spend again.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey, cool - glad you have heard it for yourself 

Pack some Plast-i-Clay in there and damp the platter and you'll eek out a bit more performance 

It's probably not the arm that's a match - its the drive.  The Grado is not well damped as most cartridges are.  So, their bass (most noticeable part of the sonic spectrum to me) is flubby.

Combined an underdamped cartridge with a belt drive table that doesn't keep good time/pitch...and you get flubbier bass.  Combine it with taut quartz lock direct drive (yours doesn't look to be servo system unless I missed that somewhere) you get tighter bass.

Congrats - you're hearing what I was dumbfounded to hear 2 years ago...excellence at modest cost with Direct Drive 

[lazydays]

As much as I liked my VPI MK3 and Rega300 there was always the urge to upgrade it. It was just too much $ to upgrade. You can get a new table for what they want with an existing VPI and the upgrades. There was always some speed pitch problems (piano) detected too. Yea, I know the upgrades. $1000 for the speed controller.
I don't get the pitch problems with the Basis 1400 I have. It's sounding real good.

NOW, you guys are making me want a blown out Technics 1200.
It never ends.

Enjoy listening to them.

Den

Yep, I know the drill.  VPI, speed stability, and TCG consistently reporting great things about DD turntables.  I'm going to have to quit reading this circle, it's making me want to spend again.

I did the direct drive thing for several years, and gave the last one away about a year ago (they don't make very good door stops). Wether they guy liked the Technics or not I don't know as I was just glad to not see it anymore. Never been fond of the way VPI sets their motors up, but it's still better than any direct drive (could be a lot better). My silver table uses a DC stepping motor to control speed, and is not mounted to anything touching the table itself. When I first set it up I check it with a vibration analizer to make sure the spindle bearing was right (I didn't believe the OEM's data sheet). Also check the motor for vibration as well. They were so quiet that there was virtually no reading. Then I check the rpm with a digital tach, and the reading I got was about a half rpm (the dots could have been off location that much). While playing music I do the "rap" test from time to time to see if anything has changed. Get very little feed back even with a hard knock. The next series of test were with different strings. I've so far tried about eight or nine combos, and always go back to a non-waxed silk based thread. With my black table things are somewhat different. It's really not built as good as the silver one even though it has a better arm on it. Took about a week for the bearing to smooth out (what do the Chinese know about bearings anyway). Have not got access to the vibration analisis equipment anymore, but already know this motor is not quite as quiet as the other one (still it's pretty quiet). The table does not dampen quite as well as the silver one, but is still very good. The platter is about 3" thick, and made of some sorta plastic stuff (formica?). Seems to dampen well, but still not as dead as the silver one. So where are we going here? The speed of the table is controlled electronicly on both tables, and it appears that both may use stepping motors to do this. The VPI uses a standard AC type of motor. Both work, but the stepping motor is better for control & stability. I've had several tables in the past that do a good job here (Technics for one), but they don't do much else right. The only table I ever had a feed back problem was a Technics SL1200, and it went out on a trade. The worst table I ever had was a JVC. You could watch the strobe go all over the place one day, and be very stable the next. But it had a much better arm and suspension than the SL1200 (arms looked the same to me but they sure didn't sound the same.) I did find that one of the best you could do to help the jap tables was to get rid of the head shell and use an aftermarket one (I used Osawas). I think now that if you had a Ginko Cloud back then you could have greatly reduced the feed back, but not enough due to the undampened platter and base. Maybe a Kenwood with the composit base would be better I don't know, but your still stuck with the paper thin platter (they did make a belt drive one with that base). Then you could ditch the funky arm for a rega or something else. By the time you got all that done you could just about have a Scout setup in your system (never liked a scout). And now we see that VPI is going with a rim drive as an option. I see two advantages, and one dissadvantage. Only time will tell but I'm not buying one.
gary

[dmckean]

Gary,

Read the SL1200 threads if you haven't already. But an aftermarket headshell, isoplatmat, tonearm rewire and fluid dampening are all key to getting great sound out of it. But even after all those mods you're still the same price as a Scout, which didn't really impress me. The cheapest table I auditioned that did impress me was the Project RM-10.  I wish there was a mass loaded direct drive option, but theres not.

--Dave

[Wayner]

It's the second night with the Techincs SL-Q2. EDITORIAL: If you can get this table on sneebay for cheap, get it!!!! This is the only table in my collection of 8 that is very warm to the Grado Gold. Here is a hint at evaluating new table set ups....use a new album. Give the sucker a chance, don't let the sins of the father screw it up for the kids. When I put  my seldom played Dire Straights, Brothers in Arms, side 2 into the machine......YIKES!!!!!! Here is another piece of advice....listen to Frank Van Alstine. He says to put a couple of drops of liquid silicone (1000 centistroke) on the pivots. SCHWING! I must go now, Garrison Keilor is speaking and I must shut off the FM tuner.... What a piece of crap he is.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner - a little high-quality lubricant in the tonearm bearing joint is a major deal...I was able to find it on the junker JVC QL-A2, but still haven't found the entry point for the newer JVC QL-F6.

A drop of Tufoil on the bearing area with the junker QL-A2 was an overwhelming positive tweek.  Everything just settled down....I suspect bearing rumble was greatly reduced, eliminating yet another layer of grunge.

I was able to do this with the Rega, too, recently......I don't know how much that might be factoriing into it's excellent....but it is a fantastic tonearm (zero notable noise from my phono preamp inputs with it connected via it's Incognito cable....I didn't think phono could be that clean ever before)

As for mass loading (dmckean's comment) ...if you ram 10 lbs (some less, and some have cavities that you can pour more into) of modelling clay in the innards of your table....your likely to have one weighing far in excess of 25 lbs including platter.  My JVC weighs 34 lbs now......enough mass (combined with a thick maple block underneath) to reject most significant matters of feedback.

In fact, my little one can jump around with the JVC playing....but will cause the VPI (which weighs close to 50 lbs in total) to skip.

 

[TheChairGuy]

After playing the VPI, tweeking it every which way I can think of, I put the JVC back on last night in rotation.

It really does keep time better....most noticeable on up-tempo rock and jazz....better, tighter pluck on bass, etc.  It keeps my head bopping more regularly 

With classical, it's not as noticeable to me, the timing/speed differences.  What IS noticeable is the greater level of quiet with teh VPI tandem.....not sure if that's the inherent strength of a de-coupled drive mechanism, the tufoil in the main bearing well....or the Rega itself (better grounding and shielded cables straight thru to the phono section of my preamp.  Or, some combo of it all 

The JVC, however, does seem 'etched' versus the VPI combo.  I honestly don't think it's the effect of any platting 'ringing' or such...that sucker has spray damping compound and a thin layer of Plast-i-Clay on the underside AND a heavy sorbothane submat and a Herbies mat on top of that.  No, it's something else.

I really am beginning to think that the critical reason why the VPI is mostly hanging in there with the JVC is the uber-modded Rega 250.  It's got good enough bearings, I was able to squirt some Tufoil in there to improve things further, the dropped counterweight has great effect on bass tautness and depth, combined with the Cardas litz OFC wire and the Incognito one piece loom you have a terrific betterment to the stock arm.

I am forming the opinion that the real reason a lot of these DD decks don't have quite the resolution and ease of the best belt drive decks is the tonearm. 

The Technics 1200 arrives later this week...hope I can find time to bastardize it with the Rega arm soon - I really think that tandem is gonna' be quite a stunner - as others have found in doing so.

[low.pfile]

TCG,
I musta missed a thread about you getting a SL1200. Is the rega arm going on immediately or will you live with stock for a while and then compare? What are your plans with the Technics TT?

have fun playing around and listening!
ed

[ricmon]

I just gotta put in my 2 cents in for my belt drive speed regulated TT. No pitch or speed problems here.  Yes it's a Pro-ject product and speed controls only adds $120.00 bucks to the equation for the Speedbox not the $1000.00 needed for the VPI stuff.   Which makes speed regulated belt drive pretty affordable.