[jmck407]

Hello,

Newly registered here, but have been following the development of Danny's LS6/9's at av123's forum  for a while now...occasionally would browse as a guest here looking for more info on them.  Pre-ordered  the LS6's at av123 in Jan, and after reading reviews on the LS9's briefly flirted with getting them, but figured they were just way too big and too much speaker for my dedicated HT/music room.  To my surprise, yesterday an av123 forum member replied to my post on LS6's and room size, saying Danny had told him his slightly smaller room would be fine with the LS9's.

His response has piqued my interest back up in the LS9's...after doing some measurements last night, it looks like I can fit either the LS6's or LS9's in the room without much pain or requiring a smaller projector screen.  I am going to list my room/equipment below, and would like comments on which speaker would work best in this room and with my current audio equipment.   I have been quite happy with the current SS pre and amps in the room, but they are definitely entry  level...e.g. cheap....when compared to the equipment used in the reviews I have read thus far on the LS speakers....In fact I use pro-audio amps for amplification,  so they probably fall in the "DJ amp" class.  Recently purchased another speaker designed by Danny the Mini-strata, and am really surprised at how well these sound with the pro-audio amp.  My expectations were not that great, given my equipment is geared toward HT, but wow...with appropriate music and volume levels....they really produce an enjoyable sound for me.   The room dimensions and equipment are:

16'x19.5'x15', equipment is an Outlaw 990 pre-amp, and a 2channel fan modified Crown XLS-402 (rated at 260w/ch into 8 ohms when driving both ch's).  Sources are either XM channels via DirectTv sat, or Redbook CD's on a Toshiba HD-A1...as you can see geared toward HT, but I really enjoy listening to 2 channel, even more with the mini-strata's.  The LS's will replace the strata's as the mains.  I plan to upgrade the outlaw with a similar price point pre that has HDMI inputs within the next year, and depending on how the Crown amp sounds with the LS's may purchase a sub 2k 2ch home audio amp (maybe with integrated pre) on the used market.  I will be able to place the speakers 3 ft from the front wall where the screen is mounted (and have the listening position at about 11ft from the nearest speaker...maybe 12ft when reclined), and get them 2ft from the side walls.  One side wall has four glass paneled french doors, that can be closed.


O.k. finally the direct question, will the LS6, or the LS9 work better in this room.  And if the LS9's can work without much pain (e.g. a lot more room treatments than an LS6), will the difference between LS6's and LS9's be discernible in a room of this size, or with the limitations of the gear I have to drive them.

Thanks,

John

[Danny Richie]

Either of the models will work fine in your room.

While the LS-9 will have the greatest potential to load a room it also has more flexibility in the bass management system to counter the low end gain that you might get.

Your tall ceilings will help keep you from overloading the room as quickly as it would if it had a more normal ceiling height.

The 9's will require a slightly longer listening distance but with the size of your room you probably have that covered pretty well. Because it is kind of square shaped you might get a room node in there somewhere and a bass peak to deal with. I'd definitely keep room treatments high on the priority list.

We had no issues with the LS-6's in the 13' by 19' sized room at RMAF.

Those pro amps will drive them just fine but you will be justly rewarded later on when or if you decide to upgrade them to audiophile type amps.

Your front end can and will have just as (if not more) dramatic of an effect as the amps. I'd start your upgrading there once your room treat and room acoustics have been addressed.

[dgshtav]

Your tall ceilings will help keep you from overloading the room as quickly as it would if it had a more normal ceiling height.

Newbie here. And am trying to learn more about the minimum room size requirements for the LS6/9 - actually for the LS9.

While I don't want to set an example for everyone to start posting their room dimensions and asking this question, I cannot resist asking the question. The reason - your quoted comment.

I am confused now coz. after reading some posts on AV123, it seemed that a room with average height (9' and above) would not be an issue given the nature of reflections from Line Arrays and that 9' would allow some space above the LS9 for it to breath. Yet your quoted comment suggests otherwise.

So with that confusion, I ask:

How much space, minimum, is desirable between the top of speaker and the ceiling?

My room is 22(L) x 14(W) x 9(H) but unfortunately vaulted left to right with 9' being the lowest height and increasing to what I believe is about 13' to 14' at it's highest point in just about 14' width. I already hear horrible echoes! A clap reverb is audible for 4 to 5 cycles and I definitely need some treatment (or even false ceiling!)

So how would the LS9's do in this room and then assuming two ceiling options - 1 false ceiling at 9' or the vaulted with treatments? I would really love to retain the vaulted ceiling as it does add the visual expanse of the space.

Thanks.
DGS

[Danny Richie]

Line source propagation works like this.

As frequency increases the vertical response decreases and limits floor to ceiling interaction. Top octave information is pretty well limited to the length of the array. In the top end you get much less room interaction that you'd get from a standard point source speaker.

As frequency decreases the output does begin to pass the length of the array. In the lower ranges the output forms an infinite array as the lows go floor to ceiling (up the ceiling towards you and down the floor towards you). 

Below 200Hz or so it can begin to load the room (mostly below 100Hz). Those wavelengths become more omni directional just as if they were coming from a sub woofer. So the more air space there is in the room (more volume) the harder it will be to overload the room simply because there is more air to have to compress.

The vaulted ceiling will have less effect on the line source than it will a point source but you still might find good advantage in placing some panels on it to minimize reflections.

[dgshtav]

Thanks Danny.

So I take it that I can have the LS9s in my room with some treatments and not be overwhelmed with the sound.

On placements, distances between/from line arrays, etc., mixed readings here. Listening distance - some say height of one array, others say height of both arrays added together. In either case I am reading it as array height and not speaker height.

I will google this and see what comes up and will also search this forum to see if I can find more. But if you (or anyone else) have any pointers to such (and more) information, do please share.

Thanks for your time and sharing your insights.

[Danny Richie]

Being as far away as the length of the array is a bare minimum but not ideal. With the LS-6's I recommend at least 8 feet away. At least 9 feet away with the LS-9's is good too.

With a 22' long room you should have no problems.

[jmck407]

Thanks for the quick reply Danny.....looks like I may be changing my pre-order over to the LS9's, although the LS6's would probably sound great in my room also.  Now that I know the LS9's can work with my room, nothing worse than wondering.....what if I had that extra ???? the bigger array provides.  As a side note, I have had a pr of strata-mini's for almost a week now, and have not been getting much sleep...it's always just one more cd...and before i know it it's already 3:00am or so  .  I know different designs, but can I expect the same outstanding  vocal and acoustic guitar presentation (or better???), plus the added benefit of really crankin some hard rock or grundge and still keepin that silly look of amazement on my face with the LS9's?

[jn316]

To my surprise, yesterday an av123 forum member replied to my post on LS6's and room size, saying Danny had told him his slightly smaller room would be fine with the LS9's.

That'd be me, Danny! You can either blame me, or thank me, depending on how you look at it. 

Hey, concerning treatments behind the 9's, do you recommend treating the entire wall, or only behind the speakers? I ask this because if I treat the entire wall, then a sonically transparent screen would be needed, right? Otherwise, the treatment behind the screen is serving no purpose.

Gary


FWIW, the Minis do Def Leppard well, but just can't match the 6's! Another room at RMAF had some guys that wanted to get a little wild, but their rock CD was SACD and didn't work on their redbook player. So I told the company rep that I had some Def Leppard (he thought I was joking at first!), and he played it. They thought it was cool, I thought it was lame! This was after the "rockin" demo we had in your room. I didn't have the nerve to tell them that their megabuck speakers sounded soooo lacking in dynamics.


Oh, hey, just saw this too from Home Theater Talk concerning the LS6's at RMAF.

http://www.hometheatertalk.com/Editorials/RMAF/rmaf.html

"These seem like they were custom designed for rock and roll music."
 

[Bach]

Thanks for the quick reply Danny.....looks like I may be changing my pre-order over to the LS9's, although the LS6's would probably sound great in my room also.  Now that I know the LS9's can work with my room, nothing worse than wondering.....what if I had that extra ???? the bigger array provides.  As a side note, I have had a pr of strata-mini's for almost a week now, and have not been getting much sleep...it's always just one more cd...and before i know it it's already 3:00am or so  .  I know different designs, but can I expect the same outstanding  vocal and acoustic guitar presentation (or better???), plus the added benefit of really crankin some hard rock or grundge and still keepin that silly look of amazement on my face with the LS9's?

Point source to line source is an apple/oranges kind of comparison.

I’ve not heard the Stratus Minis, but I have heard more than a few of Danny’s designs over the last 4 years at RMAF, and I keep coming back to his room over anyone else’s.

I don’t claim to have golden ears, though I have had them tested recently and was told my hearing was excellent (my wife might differ on that one).  I have a bit of music ability, but not a golden voice like my wife or perfect pitch like my son. In fact, I don’t sing at all, but I think I do have a fairly eclectic taste in music and know good music when I hear it.

If you prefer a point source type sound common to many small monitors and even floor standers, then you may not prefer a line source sound.

I thought I preferred point source speakers over most every other type. That’s until I heard the Alpha LS years ago.

I have heard other line sources, but not a lot of them. For example last year I heard Roger Russell’s ISD, and I would have to go back and find the others that I heard.

This year I listened to the LS-6 and 9‘s several times over the course of all three days at RMAF, and I listened to many others. My technique was simple: start on the top floor of the Marriott and go door to door, and listen to whatever system I could, regardless of appearance, design, or price.

I also go to listen to some live music as well, live acoustic music that is----the best kind. I got to sit for a while and listen to the Fry Street Quartet. Simply  stupendous. 
http://www.frystreetquartet.com/


I could go into some details of perception, but suffice it to say that the LS-6 and 9‘s sounded most like the sound I heard from that live quartet.

The only decision I have to make now is whether I go with the 6 or 9. To me, that’s a fabulous quandary in which to be.

[lord dubious]

As frequency increases the vertical response decreases and limits floor to ceiling interaction. Top octave information is pretty well limited to the length of the array. In the top end you get much less room interaction that you'd get from a standard point source speaker.

As frequency decreases the output does begin to pass the length of the array. In the lower ranges the output forms an infinite array as the lows go floor to ceiling (up the ceiling towards you and down the floor towards you). 

Hi Danny
So does it follow that a room treatment fixed to the ceiling at the first reflection point should be a bass trap (instead of a wide frequency treatment)?
Are there other aspects of room treatment that should be addressed when using your line arrays?
Cheers

[Rocket_Ronny]

Danny:

What happens if one listens to the LS closer than the rec. distance of 8 or 9 feet?


I lived with some Acoustat 1+1's and they are almost 8 feet tall. I got them as close as 8 feet away with no issues at all. But then again they are a full range driver.

I like the things I hear about the LS 9 but I like to sometimes pull in the speakers to the 8 foot mark in my room. Leads me to look towards the LS 6 more.

Thanks,

Rocket_Ronny

[Bach]

As frequency increases the vertical response decreases and limits floor to ceiling interaction. Top octave information is pretty well limited to the length of the array. In the top end you get much less room interaction that you'd get from a standard point source speaker.

As frequency decreases the output does begin to pass the length of the array. In the lower ranges the output forms an infinite array as the lows go floor to ceiling (up the ceiling towards you and down the floor towards you). 

Hi Danny
So does it follow that a room treatment fixed to the ceiling at the first reflection point should be a bass trap (instead of a wide frequency treatment)?
Are there other aspects of room treatment that should be addressed when using your line arrays?
Cheers

Not answering for Danny, just my experience at RMAF. The LS-6 room was treated to the sides and rear, but nothing on the ceiling and it sounded great. Not that ceiling treatment may not be a good thing in some cases as well.

I'm certain the smallish room and particular modes increased the need for treatment.

[Danny Richie]

Ronny, what you don't want is for the distance differential between drivers in the center of the array (at ear level) to drivers in the top and bottom of the array to become too great. If so then the delay in time will cause cancellations. At a normal listening distances the differential is and inch or so and limits the cancellation (comb filtering effects) to the upper ranges of the top octave.

[TRADERXFAN]

Linkwitz discusses some observations of a line source on his site
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm among a great many other aspects of audio reproduction.

See "E" for line source.

For some reason he actually recommends nearfield listening to a line source. See excerpt: "It surprises me that in a reverberant environment, such as a typical living room, these radiators give little indication of poor vertical polar behavior, even when the line does not fully extend to floor and ceiling. Clearly, the reverberant field in the room fills in any perceptual notches in the polar response. Standing close to the line and moving with one's ears up and down, the acoustic image does not change and follows the ear over the active length of the line, almost to its ends. Imaging is very precise, when standing or seated in the near-field of the line, which is closer than the typical listening distance given by the apex of an equilateral triangle. At greater distances the images grow in height. This can be impressive on big orchestral pieces, as if looking through a large window onto the sound stage. Small acoustic sources, like a vocalist or a cello, though, become overblown in size. Line source speakers are at their best when listened to close-up like giant headphones. This preserves proper size imaging and gives the illusion of a large sound stage. "

I have no personal experience with it, just sharing another's point of view FWIW.

[Milehighguy]

I have personal experience because I bought the show pair  . I haven't noticed any significant problems with close in listening, and would say to anyone thinking about these speakers don't be put off if you can't get too far back. I haven't stood close and listened at different heights, I guess I could try that later and report back, but they sound fantastic to me near and far and left and right. At the show I noticed a very minor change of high frequencies when standing up at close range with the ls-6's, but of course no problem with that with the ls-9's.
It occurs to me that if there is a comb filtering effect, it would be a little different with each of the 12 woofers witch might smooth out the effect, and likewise with the tweeters.
In any event, My experience says don't worry, they sound unbelievabley great near and far, and down the block.

[Rocket_Ronny]

Hi-Jack:

What LS's did you hijack? And what amp are they married to.

Thanks Danny for that as well. That is why a couple of years ago as I looked into line sources I thought I would build a curved front baffle. A lot of work, and bizzaro looking perhaps. You would have to know what distance you would be away from the speaker to optimize a curved baffle as well.



Rocket_Ronny

[jn316]

He's got the 9's, because the 6's are being raffled off for a good cause on AV123.com

[Milehighguy]

Yes, I got the 9's. The best I can do for now in terms of amps is 2 Rotel rb-980's in bridged mono mode. That gives 360 ss watts per channel with a damping factor of 1000. Can you say "tight powerfull bass"? When my finances recover from this purchase, I will be looking to upgrade the amp, maybe with a dodd unit, and the other components too, but for now I can live with the Rotel. Problem is, when I turn the pre-amp from 8 o'clock positiion to 10 o'clock position, it goes from medium low to quite loud volume. I can't imagine what 12 o'clock would sound like! Probably the sounds of silence, as I would be deaf.

[Milehighguy]

I will try to put up more comments about the 9's later when I have time. For now, I just want to say the common response I've observed from people who hear these. They all smile and close their eyes. They comment on the amazing soundstage and imaging as their first impression.

[jn316]

The best I can do for now in terms of amps is 2 Rotel rb-980's in bridged mono mode. That gives 360 ss watts per channel

Uh, that might be enough...to move the house!