[stereocilia]

Here's a link to a news article about research showing that the inner ear responds to sound in a more complicated way than we had previously known.  This, if nothing else, is a good reminder that our ear-brain systems are amazing.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/hearing-1010.html

[sunshinedawg]

This is a great article. I've done a lot of reading about the ear-brain mechanism. I think a huge part to having two channel stereo sound good to me is providing this mechanism with natural aural clues. Most audiophile setups don't do this for me, they do not recreate a natural sound field. This leads my ear/brain to constantly try to resolve this unnatural sound and I can never relax and enjoy the music.

[PaulFolbrecht]

Have you tried SETs and single-drivers?

Just wondering.

[stereocilia]

Have you tried SETs and single-drivers?

Just wondering.

While SETs and single-drivers may be provide a vastly more natural sound, I think that's a different topic.  It's probably safe to say that two audio channels in a sound-field will never give the kind of virtual reality auditory experience that would completely fool your ear-brain system until the relative placement of different sounds changes with the listener's head movement.

We've all experienced anxiety about the limits of our audio systems, otherwise why would we care about this hobby?   I just try not to let it suck the joy out of groovin' to tunes -- that's my approach.

[sunshinedawg]

It's probably safe to say that two audio channels in a sound-field will never give the kind of virtual reality auditory experience that would completely fool your ear-brain system until the relative placement of different sounds changes with the listener's head movement.

It is possible to fool your ear-brain system. The trick is to not use an equilateral triangle setup and to recreate venue accurate reflections and reverberation.

[TRM]

It is possible to fool your ear-brain system. The trick is to not use an equilateral triangle setup and to recreate venue accurate reflections and reverberation.

could you point me to some articles or posts about this topic? I'm intrigued. Thanks so much

ps beautiful shot of long's...

[John Casler]

It's probably safe to say that two audio channels in a sound-field will never give the kind of virtual reality auditory experience that would completely fool your ear-brain system until the relative placement of different sounds changes with the listener's head movement.

It is possible to fool your ear-brain system. The trick is to not use an equilateral triangle setup and to recreate venue accurate reflections and reverberation.

Hi Sunshinedawg,

Are you suggesting that such is possible?

That might be an interesting exploration.

I find that an admirable goal, but find under normal rooms basically impossible.

[stereocilia]

It's extremely easy to fool the auditory system.  Take the classic Stenger Effect, for example: just use headphones with an in-phase pure tone at the same frequency in both channels and turn the volume down slightly in one.  You will perceive the tone in the ear with the louder signal only, even though it exists on both sides.

But, *completely* fooling the auditory system with your home stereo into thinking your are in a different space with real-live musicians?  My contention is that even a stereo with an amazing portrayal of spaciousness and flawless imaging is still a different animal.  Personally, I don't lament the loss of a true virtual reality playback mechanism.  To me, a really awesome stereo sounds, um...pretty awesome.

BTW, we've strayed pretty far from talk of tectorial membranes and what not.  It's all good, though.

[sunshinedawg]

could you point me to some articles or posts about this topic? I'm intrigued. Thanks so much

ps beautiful shot of long's...

Here is a link to the Institute of Sound and Vibration Research (ISVR) page about stereo dipoles
click on the stereo dipoles tab in the menu on the left hand side.

Here is a link to the Ambiophonics site with some more about crosstalk


Check out both sites that these links came from, they have lots of good info.

Hi Sunshinedawg,

Are you suggesting that such is possible?

That might be an interesting exploration.

I find that an admirable goal, but find under normal rooms basically impossible.

Yes, such is possible, I've been doing it for years. Check out this sites I linked above they will explain it better than I can. You need three basic elements: 1. speakers located 10o to 20o degrees apart with crosstalk cancellation 2. venue specific early reflection speakers 3. venue specific reverberation speakers.

I haven't had an equilateral speaker setup in years. I heard some really goods sounds at the RMAF, some sounded really good tonally, but  none had realistic sound fields. It gives me a headache to listen like this now, because my brain/ears keep trying to process where the sound is coming from. Since they can't figure figure out where the music is coming from, they never relax and let me enjoy the music. My system might not be high buck, or tonally anywhere near what some have on this forum, but it produces a natural, realistic sound field that is so non-fatiguing I just listen for hours at a time. BTW, the speaker that gives me the biggest headache is a line source, because not only does it exhibit crosstalk from left to right, but from top to bottom.

BTW, we've strayed pretty far from talk of tectorial membranes and what not.  It's all good, though.

Sorry didn't mean to thead hijack, I just thought this was on topic with the ear/brain article you brought up. Bascially, how do we use what we know about the ear/brain to create a realistic sound field with our stereo rigs.

[TRM]

thanks

[stereocilia]

sunshinedawg,

Sorry to imply that you were hijacking. I really just meant to comment on how interesting the path is that this thread (and others) can take.

Also, those sites you linked are filled with vast amounts of great information; thanks.  It makes me wonder if the reason I have less interest in classical music and more interest in the 'wall of guitar' sound is because the latter really doesn't rely on accurate spacial presentation nearly as much.  I'll bet it's a factor, anyway. 

Someday, we will sit in front of our audio system where a camera will scan our retina to access our database containing our personalized head-related transfer function data.  It will monitor our head movement giving real-time data to DSP modules which will ensure that each tympanic membrane receives only the sound it would get in the venue where the recording was made.  At that point, we can dream about a day when direct electro-manipulation of our auditory system will eliminate the need for an acoustic transducer at all.  Brainstem ipods.  Freaky.

[Russell Dawkins]

sunshinedawg - how well does your system work with Blumlein-type recordings which ordinarily require speakers at a 90 degree included angle?

[John Casler]

Hi Sunshinedawg,

Are you suggesting that such is possible?

That might be an interesting exploration.

I find that an admirable goal, but find under normal rooms basically impossible.

Yes, such is possible, I've been doing it for years. Check out this sites I linked above they will explain it better than I can. You need three basic elements: 1. speakers located 10o to 20o degrees apart with crosstalk cancellation 2. venue specific early reflection speakers 3. venue specific reverberation speakers.

I haven't had an equilateral speaker setup in years. I heard some really goods sounds at the RMAF, some sounded really good tonally, but  none had realistic sound fields. It gives me a headache to listen like this now, because my brain/ears keep trying to process where the sound is coming from. Since they can't figure figure out where the music is coming from, they never relax and let me enjoy the music. My system might not be high buck, or tonally anywhere near what some have on this forum, but it produces a natural, realistic sound field that is so non-fatiguing I just listen for hours at a time. BTW, the speaker that gives me the biggest headache is a line source, because not only does it exhibit crosstalk from left to right, but from top to bottom.

Hi SunshineDawg,

Yes it is interesting stuff, and in fact the room below looks a little like my listening room



But that is what I was questioning.

These fellows seem to beleive (as I do) that this "sonic teleportation" must happen in a sonic environment, with the fewest distortions added by the room you are in.

Fun Stuff

[sunshinedawg]

sunshinedawg - how well does your system work with Blumlein-type recordings which ordinarily require speakers at a 90 degree included angle?

All the Chesky recordings sound great. I particularly like the drums of Babatunde Olatunji. They throw a ridiculously sound stage on my system. The Ultim Demo disc from Chesky is pretty amazing. There's a track called "Grandma's Hands" on there that scares me with the finger snapping every time, I have to open my eyes up to make sure nobody's really there.

But that is what I was questioning.

These fellows seem to beleive (as I do) that this "sonic teleportation" must happen in a sonic environment, with the fewest distortions added by the room you are in.

Fun Stuff

Yes, they say you should have an anechoic room. I do have lots of room treatment. It's up to everybody to decide how much treatment to go with. My speakers are close to the center of the room and I sit 4 ft from them. This way there is very little interaction between speaker and room to begin with(bass is a different story, I have 12 4" bass traps around the room). Once you have "fooled" the ears/brain with this technique, real sounds real. Once I achieved the illusion, I was less worried about tweaking everything and I just enjoy the music. You don't have to have the perfect room, but knowing us audio nuts, we will try anyway!