LS-9's: Very Impressive indeed!

TONEPUB · « **on:** 15 Oct 2007, 04:40 am »

Got a chance to hang out with Mark S. at the RMAF show
and spend a good amount of time listening to the LS-9's.

While it was obviously under show conditions, I was intimately
familiar with the excellent Red Rock amplifiers ($40k per pair)
as we had them in for review last year, so it wasn't much of
a stretch. They were playing vinyl through the Grand Prix Audio
Turntable (which is also coming our way for review very soon)
and the sound was killer!

I can go on record as saying I was never a fan of the line
source design, until I heard the LS-9's. These could very
well go down in history as one of the best values in high
end audio ever!

And I forgot to mention, I heard the five times more
expensive Ephiphany speakers at CES this year and they
weren't even in the same league as the LS-9....

No comparison at all.

Mark has promised us a review pair, and we can't wait!

Those of you who stopped by the room, know what I'm talking
about....

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 05:02 am »

Jeff,

I must respectfully disagree and say that this room was a disappointment.

The Red Rock amps were not a good match with the LS-9's.

The highs were rolled off and the bass was lacking in drive and authority.

I think that a better amp matching could have let the LS-9's and Grand Prix Audio Turntable really strut their stuff and let everybody hear what they are capable of.

I think this was a case where all of the excellent pieces didn't gel and produce the results everybody was hoping for.

BTW, I did think the LS-6/Dodd combo down the hall was better overall.

George

Angaria · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 05:32 am »

Don't the epiphany speakers use the BG drivers as well? So... we're just looking at the difference between neo8's and neo3's for the mids/highs?

TONEPUB · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 07:36 am »

Well, perhaps they were playing different material....
I was certainly intrigued enough by what I heard to
be interested in reviewing them.

I never judge anything by show sound.

martyo · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 11:29 am »

Sorry but I have to agree with Zybar on the LS-9 room, underpowered, not the case with the LS-6's.

TomS · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 11:55 am »

Zybar and Martyo are spot on here. A very brief session late in the evening with Gary Dodd's battery pre and 120 amps on the LS-9's hinted at what's REALLY possible from them. The show gear, while surely very fine stuff in it's own right, just didn't seem to be a great match for them.

The LS-6's sounded very good, though, in a much tighter room. The monster Dodd amps really strutted their stuff in there - WOW!

S Clark · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 11:58 am »

Very Interesting. Having heard the LS-9's and LS-6's side by side, I can assure you that the 9's are a notch up from the 6's.

zybar · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 12:05 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 15 Oct 2007, 11:58 am

Very Interesting. Having heard the LS-9's and LS-6's side by side, I can assure you that the 9's are a notch up from the 6's.

I don't think anybody was trying to say that the LS-9's were inferior to the LS-6's, rather that how they were setup at RMAF caused some of us to prefer the sound of the LS-6 based system over the LS-9 based system.

George

S Clark · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 12:20 pm »

Sorry to be misunderstood. I meant that it was interesting that the implementation of the two systems made such a difference.

95bcwh · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 12:20 pm »

The LS-6 room sounded better than the LS-9 room. I think the Dodd amp played a significant part.

The blue amp is indeed looking very good

zybar · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 12:21 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 15 Oct 2007, 07:36 am

Well, perhaps they were playing different material....
I was certainly intrigued enough by what I heard to
be interested in reviewing them.

I never judge anything by show sound.

Jeff,

If you don't judge anything by how they sound at the show (which makes perfect sense), why did you make the following comments in your first post up above?

"While it was obviously under show conditions, I was intimately
familiar with the excellent Red Rock amplifiers ($40k per pair)
as we had them in for review last year, so it wasn't much of
a stretch. They were playing vinyl through the Grand Prix Audio
Turntable (which is also coming our way for review very soon)
and the sound was killer!"

"These could very
well go down in history as one of the best values in high
end audio ever!"

"And I forgot to mention, I heard the five times more
expensive Ephiphany speakers at CES this year and they
weren't even in the same league as the LS-9....

No comparison at all."

Sure sounds like a lot of judging to me...

I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, or vice versa.

We all hear differently and we all have different biases and points of view...

I am genuinely curious why when I posted a dissenting opinion to your's, your first reaction was to say that you never judge anything by show sound.

Anyway, I hope that both Danny and Mark sell a ton of LS-9's and that they are a great success.

George

95bcwh · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 01:42 pm »

On the other hand, different people do have different ears, see this quote by Jason Victor Serinus from Stereophile, he's talking about the LS-9 room:

"Nevertheless, what I could hear was so inviting that my appetite was whet to hear them in my own listening room once they become available in a month or so. "

You know what, I wouldn't buy anything recommended by Jason in the future.

For full text see:
http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2007/

TONEPUB · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 02:24 pm »

I guess I should have said "I'd never make a final judgement based on show sound..."

However I am curious, if basically the LS-6 is just fewer drivers than the LS-9
how could the LS-6 sound "so much better than the LS-9"

I'm just not a fan of Dodd electronics. That doesn't mean they are bad. The difference
between what I heard (again on the ten minutes I sat and listened with unfamiliar material)
between the two wasn't all that big.

And last but not least, why are you out here on the AV123 forum arguing about
this in the first place?

The whole point of saying what I said was to help generate a little bit of
excitement for something I heard that I think is a great value, like everything
else I've heard from AV123.

I guess no good deed goes unpunished....

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 03:13 pm »

I couldn't say as I wasn't at RMAF but, I have heard both the LS-6 and the LS-9 and both sets were VERY impressive. It sounds like to me the LS-9's were mismatched with the amp(and I think that is what George is saying as well) they were paired with, or could it have been the room? Maybe a little of both, who knows, but I know what I heard when I listened to both sets, great music. I still have ZERO doubts about my pair!!

John

TONEPUB · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 03:27 pm »

While I saw a lot of gear that was quite good, that would have probably suited a lot
of different musical tastes, the LS-6 and 9 both struck me as offering up an awful
lot of value for the price asked.

Whether they are your cup of tea or not remains to be seen.

murphy11 · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 04:15 pm »

I'm surprised the amps weren't tried before the show to see if the system had good synergy.

brj · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 06:13 pm »

To clear a few things up, and ignoring the very real phenomenon that two or more otherwise excellent audio products may simply not "play well together"...

The LS-6s were in the GR-Research room powered by Dodd electronics and a modded Lite DAC-60. This room was small, but one of the better treated rooms in the show. I suspect that the room treatments alone very easily account for many people's preference at the show of the LS-6 over the LS-9.

The LS-9s were in the Red Rock Audio room which, while bigger, was not treated nearly as extensively (as far as I could tell). As this was the 1st pair of LS-9s seen in public, I can't imagine that there was any way to test them with the Red Rock amps prior to the show.

Having spent many hours listening to the prototype LS-6s at their current home in Fort Worth in one of the best rooms and systems I've had the privilege to experience, I can very comfortably state that neither LS speaker showed to their full potential at the show. Of course, many of us aren't lucky enough to have a room and system that will show many (most?) speakers to their full potential.

If nothing else, RMAF confirmed for me that I would take a lesser system in a better (treated) room than a better system in a lesser room, as I heard many speakers that I know to be excellent that showed to less than their full potential, regardless of the upstream equipment. This isn't a criticism of any manufacturer... acoustically treating a hotel room is probably about as challenging as it gets, and is only made more difficult by the fact that a manufacturer probably want to show their flagship product at a show, which probably has the most bass, which is the hardest thing to treat in a small room. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing I can take away from a show is a list of gear that I want to hear in my own system in my own room.

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 06:34 pm »

Very well said and what I would expect most people would understand, hence my failure to understand this statement by 95bcwh:

Quote

You know what, I wouldn't buy anything recommended by Jason in the future.

I would take the reviewers comments as the exact opposite, being made by someone with a good ear that knows he's only hearing a small portion of what that product is actually able to do under the correct circumstances.

John

TONEPUB · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 06:51 pm »

I completely agree with the room treatment concept!

However, I am always dissapointed at how critical everyone is about show sound.

Think of how long most of you have taken to get your systems dialed in...

Just the fact that their gear gets there intact, up and running is amazing.
I think John's post is very insightful and shows what all the mfrs are all
up against.

Steve Hoffman told me once that he's heard so much gear in different
situations that it's pretty easy for him to hear past the room variables,
etc. I know that after having a few hundred things pass through our studio
I'm definitely getting better at that and really look forward to a full evaluation
of these speakers in my (treated) room with my reference gear and recordings.

I still think the LS-6 and 9 will turn out to be one of the best values
to come on the market this year, regardless of whether they happen
to be your flavor or not...

95bcwh · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Oct 2007, 06:59 pm »

Sorry for the confusion. Although I fail to understand why you failed to understand me

Now, do I think that the LS-9 is a bad speaker? Hell no...I think it is one heck of a speaker!!!!

But being that "one heck of a speaker" does not mean that you put it in any room, pair it with any $40k electronics, will give you "good sound". Just look at the $250k Marten Design speaker on the show this year and last year, to me they were the biggest disappointment of the show.

I came out of the LS-6 room very impressed with what I heard, to make that big LS-6 sounded good in that little room is not easy. I came out of the LS-9 room disappointed because I was expecting the LS-9 to beat the LS-6 but it was the other way round.

Now, you have a reviewer (or reviewers) that came out and said something like:"Wow....the LS-9 room sounded really good, and hardly anything else could compare." There're two explanations when I see comments like this:
(1) The reviewers genuinely like the sound he heard in that room, then I will take it as he and I share completely different taste, the reason why he like that sound is exactly the reason why I dislike that sound. So, I wouldn't want to buy anything that he recommend.

(2) The reviewers is not being honest, i.e. he is "hyping". While it is okay to "hype" as this is a free forum, it is also okay for people to challenge the "hype". What kind of world will we be in if we disallow any criticizm or disagreement with what we say?

Quote from: KCI-JohnP on 15 Oct 2007, 06:34 pm

Very well said and what I would expect most people would understand, hence my failure to understand this statement by 95bcwh:
Quote
You know what, I wouldn't buy anything recommended by Jason in the future.
I would take the reviewers comments as the exact opposite, being made by someone with a good ear that knows he's only hearing a small portion of what that product is actually able to do under the correct circumstances.

John