[jackman]

Hi,

Per the advice of Neil, his friend Neil, Chris (the dAck guy), some other audiogeek (not as geeky as me!) friends, I moved my system to the long wall.   The purpose of the move was to allow me to place my speaker further apart and closer to the listening position.  The results were far better than anything I could have imagined.  Soundstage was wider than ever (a problem with my old setup), still pretty deep, imaging was greatly improved and bass (not a strong feature of the Ellis, however the new crossover is greatly improved) is better than I ever thought the Ellis were capable of delivering.  I put pillows behind my head (on the couch) and everything sounds very good.  

There is one rather serious problem.  My power cords don't reach the outlets and I'm forced to use a decent power-bar type plug receptical for the DAC, turntable, tuner, and transport.  The power amp and pre are plugged directly into the outlet behind them.  This outlet, unfortunately, is controled by a switch because it was designed to be used with a lamp.  Also, the ceiling fan and other lights are on the same circuit.  There is absolutely no sound coming from the speakers, however, when I turn on my amp or preamp a large "thump" or surge of power comes through my speakers.  It makes the woofers really jump and I'm concerned about damage.   Hopefully, someone can enlighten me about the thump and how to eliminate it.  

I'm thinking about getting a dedicated circuit for the amp/pre and audio gear as soon as possible, however that won't be for a while.  Does anyone know what could be causing this problem?  Everything sounds better and quieter than ever, but I dont' want to damage my system.  Any suggestions?

Jack

PS-I'll do the write-up of yesterday's session, however, I spent the evening rearranging my family room to allow for the new setup.  Placement has made a bigger difference than any wires I have ever tried.  The improvement is immediately noticeable, particularly in soundstage (it's very large now) and bass (really better).   Hopefully, there is an easy fix to the thump.

[Psychicanimal]

I'm thinking about getting a dedicated circuit for the amp/pre and audio gear as soon as possible, however that won't be for a while. Does anyone know what could be causing this problem? Everything sounds better and quieter than ever, but I dont' want to damage my system. Any suggestions?

I would use an extension cord with a Highwire Wirewrap tuning device attached and feed off another outlet, preferably cryo'ed.  Also, leave your equipment on 24/7.  Don't believe everything Van Alstine says.
Setting up your system along the long wall improves sound by delaying primary reflections.  That's why imaging is so much better. Difussors placed on the rear wall in between the speakers will also improve soundstage depth.  I have used RPG Pro Foam panels with success.  Rhynos's DIY two dimensional diffuser should work even better.

[Haoleb]

Make some DIY "audiophile" extension cords. I was forced to do this when i moved my system to be firing into the length of the room, which was not how i designed the room when we were building the house (im no sound specialist back then) so in order to use my dedicated 20 amp line i had to make two 15 foot extension cords. Just went to home depot and got some good big cable and some decent connectors and viola. Better then spending a fourtune on some junk that does the same thing just as good. and alot cheaper then moving the plugs to that area. You could even do an outlet box using hospital grade plugs and all.

[jackman]

Make some DIY "audiophile" extension cords. I was forced to do this when i moved my system to be firing into the length of the room, which was not how i designed the room when we were building the house (im no sound specialist back then) so in order to use my dedicated 20 amp line i had to make two 15 foot extension cords. Just went to home depot and got some good big cable and some decent connectors and viola. Better then spending a fourtune on some junk that does the same thing just as good. and alot cheaper then moving the plugs to that area. You could even do an outlet box using hospital grade plugs and all.

Thanks Haoleb, this solution is more my speed.  I'm going to stay away from any hocuc pocus witchdoctor crap because I did not have this problem when everything was plugged into the other outlet.  The cords are just not long enough to reach.  I'm going to Home Depot tomorrow and making the new extension cord.

Jack

[jackman]

I would use an extension cord with a Highwire Wirewrap tuning device attached and feed off another outlet, preferably cryo'ed. Also, leave your equipment on 24/7. Don't believe everything Van Alstine says.  
Setting up your system along the long wall improves sound by delaying primary reflections. That's why imaging is so much better. Difussors placed on the rear wall in between the speakers will also improve soundstage depth. I have used RPG Pro Foam panels with success. Rhynos's DIY two dimensional diffuser should work even better.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm going to try a more simple approach and if it doesn't work, move on to more expensive and sophisticated solutions.  This isn't an issue of leaving things on or off.  My gear has tubes and I don't like leaving tubes on all the time.  Plus, on my other outlet (only a few feet away from this one) I never experienced this problem.  It's not a question of one outlet being cryo'd or not having been properly lubed (with snake oil), it appears to be associated with the switch.  Not much room for anything large, but I'm going to put diffusors between the speakers on the wall behind them.   Space is tight and my wife would moan if the diffusors looked like diffusors, but that's my next step.  

I'm very happy with the current sound, just need to get rid of the popping.  This may be a question better suited for an electrician.  I"ll keep everyone posted on the corrective measures taken and the results.

Jack

[KevinW]

Jackman,

I can't remember which side of the religious debate you fall on, so I'll say the following at my own risk...

Sounds like you suddenly have a very good excuse for buying a high quality power conditioner with a custom length extension cord.  When the wife goes ballistic at all the money you spent on filtering AC power, you can say...

"But honey, it was absolutely necessary to protect my speakers from blowing up.  You wouldn't want all the time and money I have already invested to go to waste because of a cheap powerstrip, would you?"

Let me know if it works...      

[michael w]

Spending heaps on fancy power conditioners and mains cables is not likely to reduce the annoying popping.

That problem is in the low quality switches of your fan and lights rather than any inherent fault of your hi-fi equipment. Fixing the popping at the source is much more effective than spending big further down the line.

As you originally surmised a dedicated powerline for your hi-fi is the best bet.


cheerio

[bubba966]

That problem is in the low quality switches of your fan and lights rather than any inherent fault of your hi-fi equipment. Fixing the popping at the source is much more effective than spending big further down the line.

He's got a bit of a point. I've seen faulty/worn switches do some odd things.

So if you're going to hit Home Cheapo anyway, you might want to pick up a good commercial/industrial light switch to replace the one that's currently in your wall.

[Tonto Yoder]

If the switch doesn't control anything important, why not try taking it totally out of the chain??  i.e. wire the two hot wires (going into and out of the switch) together.  You could even try this temporarily to see if it changes the situation (which would indicate the switch needs to be replaced).  This obviously wouldn't help the fact that other elec. stuff is on your circuit and a cryogenically treated wire nut is suggested for the splice.

[gonefishin]

Before you get to deep into power conditioners and the like...or removing switches on existing fans and such...get the dedicated lines put in!  Just move this to the top of your list and do this before everything else.  Then, after you have the dedicated lines...if you want to add a power conditioner...or make or buy new power cables...have at it.  But the place to start is with dedicated outlets...then build from there.


   just a few thoughts>>>>>

[Hantra]

when I turn on my amp or preamp a large "thump" or surge of power comes through my speakers

Well here's an idea.  I have had many preamps that do that same thing.  My DAC even does it.  I just make sure the amp is turned on AFTER everything else, and I don't have the problem.  

I even have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits, and mine still does it if the pre, or DAC are turned on AFTER the amp.  

But since you said your amp does it too, maybe that's not the problem.  

How big's your room BTW?  I thought about trying long wall as well, but my room is only 2 feet longer than it is wide, so I am not sure it'll help much.  And my dedicated circuits are in the middle of the short wall.

L8r,

B

[Psychicanimal]

Well, the power amp should be turned on last--that's common sense!

[jackman]

Guys,
Maybe I didn't state this clearly enough.  This problem did not exist on the other outlet, it only started after I started using a different outlet.  On the old outlet, the amp could be turned on (or the preamp) at any time without issue.  Also, I know about turning the amp on last and off first. The thump or pop happens no matter what the sequence of turning gear on or off.  

I appreciate the suggestions and have decided to have a dedicated 20 amp line installed for my stereo only.  I'll have 6 high quality plug recepticals in the outlet and not use any kind of power conditioning or filters unless I feel it is necessary.  Will go with the simple approach and get more complex as the situation dictates.  For the record, the older plugs were not on a dedicated line and there were no pops at all.  Must be this circuit.

Jack

[Dan Banquer]

Your reply makes sense to me. I would at least use some kind of surge suppressor. It's cheap insurance.
                       d.b.

[MaxCast]

Good choice to have the dedicated circuts put in.  You'll have piece of mind that the delivery is up to snuff.
In the mean time I'd bypass that wall switch if you can.  You wouldn't want anyone flicking that switch on and off when the room is dark and your deeply emersed in audio nirvana.

[DVV]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm going to try a more simple approach and if it doesn't work, move on to more expensive and sophisticated solutions.  This isn't an issue of leaving things on or off.  My gear has tubes and I don't like leaving tubes on all the time.  Plus, on my other outlet (only a few feet away from this one) I never experienced this problem.  It's not a question of one outlet being cryo'd or not having been properly lubed (with snake oil), it appears to be associated with the switch.  Not  ...

Jack, that popping is no voodoo, nor is it from that sixpack of beer you hogged the night before.

Seriously, that popping is junk in the mains lines. While at it, why don't you hit the nail on the head and get a decent line filter? It will both get rid of the annoying and potentially dangerous noise and act as a distribution box with prolonged power cables.

Anyway, think about it.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

Seriously, that popping is junk in the mains lines. While at it, why don't you hit the nail on the head and get a decent line filter? It will both get rid of the annoying and potentially dangerous noise and act as a distribution box with prolonged power cables.

Anyway, think about it.

Cheers,
DVV

Dejan,

Van Alstine does not believe in noise filtration--says that his gear is good enough.  The same goes for (audio grade) power cords, interconnects & speaker wire.  It's quite a limited perspective, I'd say...

[jackman]

Jack, that popping is no voodoo, nor is it from that sixpack of beer you hogged the night before.  

Seriously, that popping is junk in the mains lines. While at it, why don't you hit the nail on the head and get a decent line filter? It will both get rid of the annoying and potentially dangerous noise and act as a distribution box with prolonged power cables.

Anyway, think about it.

Cheers,
DVV

Hi DVV,

I don't doubt power conditioning is important.  Maybe I can check out some BPT products when I visit Roop's place in NYC.  He's a dealer for BPT and I would really like to get some stuff from someone like Roop who I trust completely.  In this case, there was no popping before I made the switch (new outlet).  This outlet has lots of stuff on it and it's doing strange things to my stuff.  Sound is still very good, but that popping is irritating.

I appreciate the feedback and got a real chuckle out of your beer comment.  My wife would also agree!

Jack

[Marbles]

I appreciate the feedback and got a real chuckle out of your beer comment.  My wife would also agree!

Jack

how about Jack12pack as your new handle?  Somehow it sounds appropriate  

One thing your doing right is running the new circuit with 6 recepticles.  When you run 2 circuits to the same place, you really increase the risk of ground loops.

[jackman]

Van Alstine does not believe in noise filtration--says that his gear is good enough. The same goes for (audio grade) power cords, interconnects & speaker wire. It's quite a limited perspective, I'd say...

Hey Psychoanimal,

For someone who professes to be so open minded, you sure seem to get a great deal of joy from taking shots at someone whose gear you have never heard.  I assume you never heard AVA gear because if you did you would probably own it.    Maybe you didn't read my original post or you only read the stuff you wanted to read, but I never had this problem on the other outlet in the same room.  There is too much stuff on this circuit (ceiling fan, lights, etc.) and it seems to be causing a problem.  I have a Chang Lightspeed filter attached at the moment (one that I tried and have to return) and the pops still persist.  I'll address power conditioning after I get this problem fixed.  It's definitely the outlet because it never had this problem on my old outlet. Anyone who would address this issue without dealing with the outlet is a fool.  

My AVA gear doesn't use any fancy power cord, snake oil or cryo'd boards, but it sounds better than anything I have ever tried in my system.  For the money, I have never tried better sounding gear.  Recently, I compared the AVA Fetvalve amp with a highly rated Coda Continium amp (with aftermarket cord) on my system.  I'll let you decide which amp the owner of the Coda thought sounded better.  

Do yourself a favor, listen to some AVA gear on your system...wimpy power cord and all, and tell us what you think.  You are in for a real eye...ear opening experience.

Jack