[AdamM]

What do these guys all have in common?






An interest in the nonlinear


Enrico Fermi (top image) the famous mathematician is known for many things, one of them being the Fermi distribution function:



Film
Photographic film has a nonlinear density response to exposure which is called 'slope'.   Try as they might, film engineers cannot get film to have a flat response.  The compression of the blacks crushing and the whites clipping has a very pleasing look to it.  The 'Film look'.  Digital sensors in cameras have a much flatter response, yet the manufacturers emulate film slope because it is deemed more pleasing.

Film slope is also slightly different between the emulsion layers, giving slight tonal shifts at under exposure and over exposure (why your old underexposed photos at home are often slightly green)

Film slope response:



These curves look good.

Spielberg prefers to shoot on film, for the look of that response (although digital emulation is getting really good)


Audio

Many producers and audio engineers go for the nonlinear too.  Bob Rock, who recorded the Metallica Black album, used all digital, but 2" tape for the drums.  Tape compresses transients.  There's dozens of digital programs and plugins which mimic the response of recording on tape.

Here's a graph showing the effects of 'Tape Compression'



This curve sounds nice.

I'm giving a talk at a conference next month, with a section titled:  'Visual degradation as a method to increase quality'  - The paradox where by making something look worse (skillfully) you actually make it look better.

Anyways, this nonlinear response aspect was a part of it, and i found it fascinating how it also parallels with audio.

So, why do humans prefer these similar response curves?  Are we just responding to the beauty of nature?  There's no straight lines in nature...

/A

[mcullinan]

Fascinating. Perhaps it has something to do with contrasts. Dark and light, quiet and loud, and bringing these closer together to increase perceived dynamics. Am I close at all? Hehe. I'm an oil painter and I would say contrasts create focus, similiarly with the choices made on a color pallette with only subtle contrast, by creating tension between color.
mike

[Daygloworange]

I've often used the analogy of photography and audio recording and playback. The effects of the encode/reproduce (sic) medium of these two processes have a lot of parallels.

Optical (lens) distortion, and transducer/gain distortion are real. But humans can temper them, and can actually compensate for them.

This is a fascinating area of human perception.

Great idea for a thread Adam.

A real Pandora's box.

Cheers

[AdamM]

DGO,

I love your (sic) sics ! 

You have a foot firmly in both camps don't you?  Digital and analog gear wise...   How much of it is nostalgia and how much is it because you don't feel you can replace the analog sound with any digital gear?

/A


PS  i'm going shooting today, digital AND film  

[AdamM]

DGO,

I love you're (sic) sics ! 

You have a foot firmly in both camps don't you?  Digital and analog gear wise...   How much of it is nostalgia and how much is it because you don't feel you can replace the analog sound with any digital gear?

/A


PS  i'm going shooting today, digital AND film  

[Daygloworange]

Been recording on analog tape for over 25 years. My first reel to reel was an Akai 4000 DS MkII 2 track.

Then went to Teac, Fostex, Tascam, 4, 8, 16 track machines. Still have the scars from tape splicing edits with razor blades.     From 1/4" tape up to 1/2". Dolby B and C, Dbx type I noise suppressions.

I even have a Sony cassette deck with Dolby S (the consumer audio equivalent to Dolby SR) which totally rocks! 

Been digital sampling since the late 80's.

Now I record on digital.

Do I like the analog sound?

Yup, on certain things.

Do I miss analog?

Nope.

You can still achieve the coolness of analog with digital. You just have to adapt to mimic what analog does with Eq, compression. It's not that hard.

With all the great selection of mic's and pre's out there, and the tremendous power of outboard processors (be it stand alone analog or digital or software based plug ins), if you can't get the sounds you want, you need to tweak some more.

It's like developing a vocabulary. You experiment, then, when you strike upon a combination, you (archive it), and call upon it, if and when the time calls for it.

Actually, the Metallica reference you mentioned is a cool one. If you rent the movie "Some kind of Monster", you see quite a bit about how they actually engineer the sounds on that album. The studio looks like a bomb went off in it. There is gear, wires, mic stands, everywhere!

It's actually a cool behind the scenes look at recording. ( I'll refrain from my opinion on the sounds of Metallica records)

Bob Rock (original guitar player for the Payolas) started off as engineering at Little Mountain Sound (studios) in Vancouver B.C. Then went on to produce other people. He's always been extremely talented.

Listen to "Eyes of a Stranger" by Rock n' Hyde. The drums pound!

Little Mountain Sound was a fantastic studio. Some of the biggest names recorded there for quite a period.

Bob Clearmountain worked out of there as well, and is quite a good producer as well.

Back to the topic.

I like digital for sonic reasons, as well as the fact that it's more conducive to the artistic and creative process.

Anyone who has spent any amount of time with analog, cleaning capstans and pinch rollers, de-gaussing heads, re-aligning heads, re-biasing etc....  will know what I'm talking about. It's tedious, and it sucks. 

You couldn't pay me to go back to analog.

Cheers

[AdamM]

Little Mountain Sound.  What a history.  I grew up in Van and would sometimes drive by.  Same with Mushroom studios.  Both gone now.  Stories still linger about Motley Crue at the Marble Arch (i think they mention it in Girls Girls Girls...)

A while back the urinals from Little Mountain were put up on Ebay !   There was this long list of famous musicians that 'probably' used the urinals.  I can't remember what they went for, i think $500.  Strange! 

Funny you mention "Eyes of a Stranger"  I worked for a number of years with Chris Taylor who played those drums.  Small world.  I should have asked him how he recorded them.

I like digital for sonic reasons, as well as the fact that it's more conducive to the artistic and creative process.

Good point, well said. Iteration time and process is very important

The only analog i ever used was an old Fostex R8.  Something told me that 8 channels in 1/4 inch wasn't the best idea.. and after a bounce, things got pretty mushy..


I saw a decent one used for $300 not long ago and came pretty close to getting it.  Need one? no. Useful?  maybe?  I thought of running it as an outboard 'effect' running half of the channels L and the other half R (or 3 a side leaving two empty tracks to prevent crosstalk?  the mind reels at the possibilities)

Didn't get it.  Clutter.  Maybe i should have got it?  Maybe i can find a cheaper one now!?

The other day i used my modded Apex 460, straight into a Apogee pre and A/D, hint of reverb, a little EQ to pull the crispy stuff down.  It was a male voice, breathy and airy.  Listening back, he was right 'there' in front of you in the mix.  I listened to it a few times a got a bit lost, lost in just hearing what was happening.  For a few moments i forgot to think about tweaking something, i just was there listening, kind of swept away.   That's when i realized 'Leave it alone!  It's done!'

The ability to do this, for a minimal investment really - compared to what it used to cost with analog -  still blows me away.

Just because the hardware is more accessible, doesn't mean that the amount of good content has increased that much    All those video cameras out there don't translate into a bunch more great movies coming out.  That's what i tell myself when i feel lazy 

[Daygloworange]

Adam.

Sorry man, I meant Bruce Fairbairn, not Bob Clearmountain! 

Crap. I edited my post to delete that. I'd hate to have someone do a google search and find that.

Cheers

[nathanm]

I think we all struggle with changing technology as things get better and better that is, more linear.  But of course we don't necessarily LIKE what linear sounds or looks like, but the nice thing is that if you can achieve linear then you have the option to go non-linear whereas with the older technologies you're stuck with it.  Of course, there's more to a certain medium than the result, there's also the process.  While digital may offer every conceivable convenience and cost-effectiveness there will still be some people who miss the process, as clumsy and backward as it may seem in the light of new technologies.  You might be able to digitally model and completely recreate the favorable aspects of analog film or tape in a digital software system, but to some it just might not be as fun to get there.  The big clunky tool and machines had their own appeal.  To me the problem with digital is that sometimes you can achieve things too easily and you miss out on the journey.  Of course, stuff we're doing today will seem extremely slow, complicated and arduous to people years from now.

[geezer]

Fermi was a famous physicist who, of course used a lot of math (as all physicists do).

[AdamM]

Sorry man, I meant Bruce Fairbairn, not Bob Clearmountain! 

Crap. I edited my post to delete that. I'd hate to have someone do a google search and find that.

Edited mine too.   Don't want any searches to come up / fates to be tempted.

[AdamM]

While digital may offer every conceivable convenience and cost-effectiveness there will still be some people who miss the process, as clumsy and backward as it may seem in the light of new technologies.  You might be able to digitally model and completely recreate the favorable aspects of analog film or tape in a digital software system, but to some it just might not be as fun to get there.

Well said.  Isn't the process fun?  You feel more a part and owner of the results, you made them.  Heck Nathan, you're really making them, with your sick projector and darkroom setup!

The ritual is fun, the whole experience is rewarding.   I dig shooting slide film, but in this somewhat faraway town, there's just ONE E-6 lab!!!

I like to think that there's enough old gear out there and people that love it, to support supplies and materials to do this for the next few decades...  I really hope so.