Power Cords For Integrated Amps

Tbadder1 · « **on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:29 pm »

I see lots of powercords that are made especially for front ends or amps. But not many mention they are made specifically for integrated amps. Is there a special problem when dealing with integrateds or is this talk of specifically built powercords just industry gobbelty-gook? Any ideas or experiences? Thanks guys.

Dan

satfrat · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 08:30 am »

Hey Dan, ever thought of test driving some power cords and finding out for yourself what differences you might or might not find? Or would you rather have someone tell you what you should hear or won`t hear? You got two ears dude, use them! There`s allot of PC manufacturer`s out there that will give you a 30 day tryout for the cost of shipping. It`s threads like this that just ends up in a flame war of opposing opinions and in the end Dan, you`ve learned nothing. With that said, I personnally favor Venhaus`s flavor 4 PC`s for grounded amps and absolutely loved his flavor 3 PC for my ungrounded digital Yamaha receiver. Go audition Dan and have fun.

Regards, Robin

Hantra · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 03:01 pm »

Dan:

Try the Audience PowerChords. They're the best I have ever used. They have a 30 day money back. I don't think anyone has ever used that on the PowerChords.

I heard on the down low that 8th Nerve might be bringing a power cord out that is supposed to be great. I haven't heard it myself, but I trust these guys' ears.

B

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 05:34 pm »

If you do not address noise control first you will be very confused when shopping for power cords. A lot of these "audiophile" power cords are designed as filters and spatial enhancers. Listening to them could give you the impression that they sound great, when in reality they are bandwith limited and colored. Get your power right on first.

It is my experience in my system (and in Lak's highly revealling system) that as power delivery/noise control measures improve, expensive power cords become irelevant. I have a friend who says opened one of those Audience and said the cable is about $3.99 a foot! Beware! This is not to say that there are no expensive power cords that are great--just that we have found that expensive does not necessarily mean great. You will be entering Voodoo territory...

lcrim · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 08:47 pm »

Been on vacation, and in catching up I noticed that cable discussions can be very entertaining.
Several weeks back I asked a similar question about power chords. I upgraded my stock power chords and the changes were dramatic.
I paid less than $15 delivered for the Volex 17604 (2 meter). No DIY, no big bucks. Nothing fancy, 3x14ga with a properly spaced shield, moulded plugs. Are they as good as the higher priced speads suggested by others? Probably not. They can be improved with better plugs and IECs, and when you do that you've got the (in)famous Asylum Cord, which is what many market for substantial (not by audiophile stadards) bucks.
Go to www.newark.com and search for 17604 or 17605.
When you compare aftermarket PCs for 'bang for the buck' it should be against these Volex cords, not against what came with your components. Depending on your metrics, and your system,(and your wallet) the decision as to whether to upgrade beyond the Volex cords becomes less obvious.

Hantra · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 09:13 pm »

I love these wire discussions. . .

It seems EVERYONE has their own little story where they paid $10 for some wire, and it beat out some expensive wire, or was really close, blahblahblah. . .

What you have to understand is that your system must be nice in the first place to hear big differences in wire. And even then, the differences aren't going to be amazingly huge between your $15 wire, and a $200 wire. When you get into fine tuning though, it's all so system dependant. So if your $15 wire IS better, then cool. Congrats!

In my system, I have founf the Audience to be the best I have ever tried. And yes, it is expensive. But it is dramatic. And I have DIY'd all kinds of cable, and tried all kinds. . . So I have bought the $15 cables. . . I'm not putting these people down, I just find it amusing that many folks come out of the woodwork with stories like this when we have cable discussions.

I'd love to just let these people hear what real cable is like. .

B

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 11:07 pm »

Quote from: Hantra

I'd love to just let these people hear what real cable is like. .

Very true. But that does not necessarily mean expensive.

My friend Deano was using his own modification of the Venhaus power cord with his 20K Lamm monoblocks. Previously he was using Absolute Power Cords. He had tried "expensive" power cords and they did not make the cut. Then again, his noise control measures are superior to most people's.

lcrim · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 11:48 pm »

I did not come "out of the woodwork", I was in the Dominican Republic for a while.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

I did not come "out of the woodwork", I was in the Dominican Republic for a while.

Hmm, getting laid at Pablito's & Teresita's....

Sure not everything is audio!

Occam · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 12:33 am »

.. ..

Occam · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 04:59 am »

Tbadder,

Normally, I would endorse lcrim's suggestion of using the Volex powercord, at least as a baseline to compare other cords to. But the Mark Levinson marque (at least in it pre Harmon guise), has always provided very acceptable powercords with there products. Acutally, it was their use of the Belden 17604 cord (now with a Volex moniker) that led Bob Crump to realize that powercords really do have subjective effects, and modify it with better terminations, and offer the design to the DIY community, which became the 'Asylum Powercord". So if your present powercord says Belden or Volex 14/3, you've got a good baseline. If it says Unicable, take the cord and use it to bind whoever sold you the ML in a humiliating and painful position and then get the Volex for baseline duties.

As far as specific configuations being more appropriate for certain a use being total drivel.... no, it is the overall marketing 'technical' descriptions and rationalizations, from some of the very 'bestest' manufacturer's that is total drivel. But some configurations do indeed suck less in in line level and digital use. But your need for your very husky, yet resolving integrated are the same as those of a poweramp. In addition to the previously mentioned Audience, I'd suggest products from TG Audio (Bob Crump's commercial offerings), Empirical Audio and VH Audio, all vendors that don't blow smoke up their customer's ass.

It might also be fruitful to pose your question on the Amp/Preamp or Cable forums over on Audioasylum.com. And consider whether the response is from someone who actually evaluated on an ML amp or integrated, not someone who simply must share and evangelize their latest purchase. Sorry, but I've never heard MLs with other than their supplied Belden/Volex cords. And do buy on approval....

lcrim,

Way to go!

Minimal cost, and usually, an accross the boad major improvement over a stock OEM cord. The first 90%(+-) of improvements. are cheap if you know what yer doin and yer a lucky sod, its that last 10% that's 'spensive.

Occam (aka pmkap)

PS- And as good as the Audience powercord may be, I'll take 3 Volexs @$1/ft on 3 components (source, pre, amp), over 1 Audience pc @$350+++ on the component of your choice, with the remaining components using their stock OEM PCs, any day....

Hantra · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 05:04 am »

Quote

I'll take 3 Volexs @$1/ft on 3 components (source, pre, amp), over 1 Audience pc @$350+++ on the component of your choice, with the remaining components using their stock OEM PCs, any day....

That's tough to say with you having never heard an Audience PowerChord in your system. You could have a complete change of heart. . .

Occam · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 05:46 am »

[quote="Hantra
That's tough to say with you having never heard an Audience PowerChord in your system. You could have a complete change of heart. . .[/quote]

Possibly, but.... the Volex (and the derivative Asylum Powercord) sin's are those of minimal omission. The difference between the Asylum and Volex is the same difference as between a Superior BP30 binding post and a WBT binding post, a bit less warm, a bit more resolving, but not something differentialble unless obscessive. And that only if the Asylum cords connectors are soldered with considerable skill. In a Spectral based system I'd prefer the Volex, in a Rowland, I'd opt for the Asylum.

Granted, I've not heard the Audience in my system. I've have heard it in another's. Quite a nice cord, and certainly better than an Asylum cord. But it isn't going to compensate for absolute drek elsewhere, which is what most OEM cords are. What you're implying is akin to saying that a wonderful interconnect could compensate for an excreble ic also in the chain (say, Kimber PBJs f'rinstance), something that is simply not possible.

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:35 pm »

Quote from: satfrat

Hey Dan, ever thought of test driving some power cords and finding out for yourself what differences you might or might not find? Or would you rather have someone tell you what you should hear or won`t hear? You got two ears dude, use them! There`s allot of PC manufacturer`s out there that will give you a 30 day tryout for the cost of shipping. It`s threads like this that just ends up in a flame war of opposing opinions and in the end Dan, you`ve learned nothing. With that said, I personnally favor Venhaus` ...

You of course are correct, Robin, and of course there are many solutions, and most are system dependent, and that's where the confusion lies. There's just too many powercords out there. That's why I asked. I won't even bother to try a powercord lke Michael Wolff's "Source" because he claims it's strictly front end. He's not even confident in his own cord feeding an amp, so why should I give it a try. On the other hand, Mr. Wolff also has a "Gain" cord for amps--well, there's the conundrum. Neither should be be suitable for an integrated amp then. So I was hoping to hear from others if they had:

A) success with their integrated amps, or
B) had heard of cords made specifically for integrated amps.

This is not laziness on my part, or at least I hope. But I've only been at this games four years and I still consider myself a newbie, so I was hoping for some suggestions, wisdom.

But I'm also a little skeptical that front end vs. amp powercords is or should be an issue. It smells like a marketing plan to me, but I could be wrong.

So thanks Robin for reminding me of the ultimate truth, and quite frankly, and maybe even embarassingly so, I've never heard of Venhaus before. I'll get my ass in gear and go test driving. Any other suggestions "Circlers!"

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:41 pm »

Quote from: Hantra

Dan:

Try the Audience PowerChords. They're the best I have ever used. They have a 30 day money back. I don't think anyone has ever used that on the PowerChords.

I heard on the down low that 8th Nerve might be bringing a power cord out that is supposed to be great. I haven't heard it myself, but I trust these guys' ears.

B

It's not that I feel ignorant or any thing--I just am. What's the 8th Nerve, Hantra? Oh and I definitely try the Audience as that was a brand swirling somewhere in the outer reaches of my confusion. Thanks for the suggestion, and the explanation to come.

Dan

bubba966 · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:43 pm »

Here's Eight Nerve's site

http://www.eighthnerve.com/

They also have a forum here.

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Sep 2003, 11:46 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

If you do not address noise control first you will be very confused when shopping for power cords. A lot of these "audiophile" power cords are designed as filters and spatial enhancers. Listening to them could give you the impression that they sound great, when in reality they are bandwith limited and colored. Get your power right on first.

It is my experience in my system (and in Lak's highly revealling system) that as power delivery/noise control measures improve, expensive power cords become irelev ...

Animal, could you briefly describe they noise control steps you've taken? I've got a very basic set up. Digital and video go into a Tice AV Solo; amp goes into a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet.

Dan

satfrat · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 12:13 am »

Dan, check out www.venhaus1.com for Chris Venhaus`s cables designs. He explains his cales designs and their component compatablity and has the cable parts for DIY if that`s your thing. OR he has ready-made power cords for simpletons like me.

Anyways, there`s good info to Chris`s site that makes for a good read. Regards, Robin

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 03:37 am »

Quote from: Tbadder1

Animal, could you briefly describe they noise control steps you've taken? I've got a very basic set up. Digital and video go into a Tice AV Solo; amp goes into a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet.

Dan

I had a Tice A/V Solo but it's long gone. It was my very first piece of equipment and works good for video sources and digital. Now my system runs off a 220V dedicated line. I use a 95 lb ONEAC 220V/110 isolation transformer/filter and a 48 lb Clear Image T4 quad isolation transformer/filter array. The T4's have balanced filtration (not to be confused with balanced power). That is, they filter both the hot and the neutral--coming in and out--unlike the Tice. In the audio room I'm getting ready I will set up two 220V transformers, the ONEAC for my power amps and a Xentech Extreme for feeding two T4 filters: one for digital line level components, one for analog line level. Every component will be isolated from another and connected via cryo'ed receptacles and power cords.

Each case is application specific. If you can use 220V it will be a major improvement not just in noise control, but in slam and authority as well. I suggest you search the Audiogon archives and take your time reading and learning. REMEMBER, THIS IS A JOURNEY--NOT A DESTINATION.

Bosh · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Sep 2003, 05:08 pm »

Quote from: Tbadder1

Is there a special problem when dealing with integrateds or is this talk of specifically built powercords just industry gobbelty-gook?"

I'm willing to be wrong here, and I'm a power cord agnostic anyway, but it seems to me that "specifically built" applies to digital v. analog equipment. The theory being to keep digital signals away from your analog gear and vice versa. Seperate digital and analog AC outlets, for example, are not uncommon in better power conditioners.

I doubt if any cables are marketed with the degree of specificity (integrated/seperates) that you seem to be asking after. However VPI has introduced a special AC cord for its outboard TT moters. If someone could explain THAT to me I'd be happy.

If you're looking to try on aftermarket AC cords for the first time, check out the "Basic Power Cord" from Virtual Dynamics. For about $35. you get a six foot, hand made cord with more heft than most substation feeds. It's shielded, "cryoed" and terminated very well. I can't claim to have heard any explicit improvements with this cord in place, but it more than covers its cost by scaring the Hell out of my non-phile friends .