[jimdgoulding]

Hi.  I need some advice and think a lot of you could benefit from some from me, too . .

The people I am reaching with my product are advanced listeners using great gear but my intended market is the mass of people listening with traditional box speakers.  The technical editors of both Positive Feedback Online and The Absolute Sound have given me highly complimentary feedback about my product and gave me the impression that they would publish their findings.  This hasn’t happened thus far.  The former has a speaker project on her plate and I suspect that both their editors may not want to grace their hallowed pages with such a small, esoteric device.  Of course, I’m disappointed.  Reviews sell product.  They create demand.  I need this and the explanation of the science taking place by experts such as these.

The publisher of 6 Moons told me a person could DIY, so I asked him how he, personally, would go about doing this (I was holding back, for sure, having already been the whole route).  He told me and I told him that I would travel his road and get back to him.  I did exactly that visiting hardware and fabric stores in my area, the 4th largest market in the U.S.  What I found was material too thin to do the work that needed to be done and that was composed of a very high percentage of synthetic fibers (rayon was typical).  Absorbency and mass are the most important things for effectiveness.  That’s indisputable to these ears and an additional benefit is a flattening out of peaks and valleys in the frequency response from 4000Hz to about 10kHz as shown by 3 independent studies given to me by customers.   Rayon has no absorbency properties, quite the opposite, actually.  When I reported back to him he agreed to introduce my product in his Industry News section.  This is how I sold my very first pair.  I thanked him and we discussed a little exotic music.  Onward and upward.  I was encouraged.

To help educate those of you would benefit from my product I invite you to read John Dunlavy’s articles on time and phase management (www.audio-logic/dunlavy/about/design ) and the challenge for speaker designers using dynamic drivers with crossovers and traditional enclosures.  His impulse and time domain measurements are particularly of relevance.  The master used felt to damp “unwanted” reflections from the surfaces adjacent to his tweeter.  Vandersteen does this.  Green Mountain Audio does this.  You can, too.  More effectively with my product than with anything that’s ever been on the market before or, I dare say, you can do on your own.

More information about my product specifically is available on my website along with some industry and customer comments and a little interesting music I invite you to listen to while reading.  There is pricing and an ORDER FORM.  For those who would benefit, owners of traditional box speakers, you’re a fool not to try this.  And you’ll hear what I hear or I’ll refund your money.

I opened this thread looking for some marketing ideas from what I believe is a very smart group of people.  Please, I’m very thirsty.

Thank you in advance.

Jim Goulding

[ooheadsoo]

Hey Jim, I got one for you - what about the wool felt from carr-mcmaster?  I don't know if there is any cost benefit to purchasing either from you or from mcmaster carr but I do remember that their wool was pretty darn cheap and THICK (well, I bought it that way, I'm sure you could get 1/2" or less thickness.)  AFAIK, that has been the source for diyers with no sense for aesthetics   DLR's website at http://www.speakerdesign.net/ has been my primary resource in felt absorption in the past.

The one problem I have (besides it looking fugly) is that after about 3 years, it's been falling apart.

[jimdgoulding]

Gol dang moths is what it is!  Thanks, mate for the addresses.  I'm familiar with the first one tho I use another source and use F3 grade wool felt if you want to know.  Don't expect there would ever be a problem with this density falling apart cept for those dang moths, maybe.  And, for purposes of aesthetics, I have it professionally cut.  As you might suspect, that adds to the cost but I couldn't begin to get as nice of an appearance using hand tools.   That's part of whole route I was talking about.

Oh, and by the way, I can cut them so a person can return their speaker screens if they would like.

Hey, Head, did you ever get Three Quartets?

[Vapor Audio]

Right, I've bought my pressed wool felt from McMaster Carr.  The one thing I'd be willing to pay for however is if you sold them with die-cut star patterns instead of a circle ... that gets tedious to do with an x-acto knife   The star pattern looks cool, and works better because all the surfaces of felt are at different distances away from the tweeter dome.

Just my 2 cents ...

[jimdgoulding]

Hey, thanks for your 2 cents.  Did I understand you right that you would pay for surrounds with a star shaped center cut?  I know this is thought to be "better" and when a lower grade of felt is used, that is to say more reflective, it probably would be.  It ain't the felt, it ain't the wool part, it's what the wool part is mixed with.  The studies I refered to in the opening unanimously reveal an improvement in frequency response peaks and valleys over a pretty good range and that tells me that pie shaped slots would just be superfluous in this case.  Heck, it might make it worsr! 

[Russell Dawkins]

Believe me you can hear the cavity resonance with a circular aperture as you are using.

I know from having tried to record wind (very difficult!) and gone through a wide variety of different materials and shapes in an effort to get no sonic signature from what was intended to be a wind shield.
Amazingly, even standard fiberglass batts in 3 or 4 inch thicknesses, rolled into a cylinder of about 8-12" diameter produced a very obvious cavity resonance when the mic was moved into and out of this shape, when auditioned with headphones.

I was designing speakers at the time and went to a star pattern for the felt tweeter surrounds. This was before any commercial manufacturer was doing it. A rectangular configuration of felt, like the LS3-5A of the early 70s, is almost as good, and certainly better than a concentric circle.

[jimdgoulding]

I shouldn't doubt you, Russ, particularly if the device you were testing was deeper than 3/8th of an inch.  And at what distance was the microphone?  I removed square neoprene tracts from around my tweeters that came that way from the manufacturer after listening to them that way for 8 years and adding my surrounds what I heard was pure revelation.  Go figure.  A person could cut star points from my product if they think they would experience a benefit.  I suppose I could do that, too, if asked.  I custom cut some very narrow slots out myself for a customer using some JM Focal Labs cause they have a bar over their tweeters that had to be allowed for.  Cheers.   

Anybody got any marketing ideas as to how I might get more exposure?

[ooheadsoo]

Sorry for the OT but yes, I did get Three Quartets.  It's a lot to swallow, though, I will need spend more time with it at my own pace to really come to grips with how I can best appreciate it.

[topround]

Jim,
I read your website a few weeks ago and found it very interesting, I have owned Green Mountain speakers and know they are full of felt. Your product definitely intrigues me but I think the price is what scares people off. Most people know what the material is and how much it costs. $ 50 seems a bit steep, try 29.95 I bet you would get a lot more bites, including me. Gives people an opportunity to see how great it works, then raise the price when demand is high. I know $50 is not a lot of money in this hobby, but it is a tweak made out of felt, tacked on to the tweeter surround, its not cryo'ed
Of course we would spend several hundred dollars and much more on cables, but that of course is very different

I am serious, get the price right and a lot of people will try it. Many may be intrigued and figure they will try making it themselves, and if they make it wrong and it doesn't help, then for sure they won't buy yours, they will think it just another BS tweak.
I commend you for your effort, because I think these felt rings really do help.

mike

[jimdgoulding]

Thank you, Mike.  You are not the first person to tell me that.  That would be Gene Pitts, former editor/publisher of Audio magazine and now The Audiophile Voice so you are in good company.  I will do that for members of Audio Circle effective right now.  I don't know the level of persons visiting my site but the response that I've gotten here is pretty typical in that those responding as well as my customers to date are very knowledgable about things audio.  It occurs to me that if there was some positive buzz going on here perhaps more people amongst the member body would try this.  Surely not everyone here listens with planars. 

A recent customer called me with feedback having me wait while he organized his notes.  Four pages of notes!  I mostly just listened as there was nothing for me to do but listen.  He did all the talking.  I have asked him to forward me his notes that I might publish them.  There is no reason that I can think of why anyone with box speakers who tries this won't get the same result.  And yet here I sit fitting a pair a week or so for the educated. 

Fifty bucks doesn't seem like much of an investment to me to improve one's listening experience and appreciation of their equipment and recordings.  But your comments are real world and I'm going to take your advice.  So, for members of Audio Circle, your price is $29.95 plus shipping.  There are no PayPal fees.

And that includes your satisfaction or a refund.

Ya'll better enjoy this!  Just go to my website.  You'll see what to do.  Be talkin to you soon.  Jim

[mfsoa]

Hi Jim,
A few thoughts and questions if I may,

Thought- I just checked out your web site and I confess I was suprised at the $50 price, thinking it was high. This is not meant as a criticism but just to let you know what my knee-jerk reaction was. I fully understand that there are significant business costs behind the scenes and that to have a web site, accountant fees, some lawyerly advice etc. adds a bunch on top of material and labor. Heck, it'd be hard to sell pairs of folded notebook paper at a price perceived as "good" at limited volume and still consider yourself "in business". The $30 does seem much more reasonable to me. I do not mean to imply that your product does not yeild > $50 improvement to your target audience, especially when compared to other items in this hobby. I know yours is based on understandable science, so to me at least there isn't a hint of snake-oil involved.

Question- Have you experimented with tapering the cut-out? Maybe not the right word, but making the opening narrower near the tweeter and wider away from it? Perhaps this would ameliorate cavity resonance, as Russell says, if this is really an issue. Ah, flared - that's the word.

Thought- Keep a running list of speakers that you've made your product for on the web site. It'd give folks more confidence that the piece will fit well. Less dice-rolly for the consumer (Again, I don't mean to imply that you have ever failed to hit the size just right, just that it might be a slight confidence boost for the customer to know that they aren't the first).

Please take the above as well-intentioned rambling. Wish you the best.

-Mike

[mfsoa]

Sorry to be a pest-
How removable is your product?

Thanks

-Mike

[jimdgoulding]

Thank you, Mike, for your comments.  I will list some speakers I've fitted for in the close of this reply.  First things first.  You have nice equipment.  Also, it tells me you have an appreciation of value.  I like your avatar mostly because I like the man.  I was stationed near San Francisco in the day when Trane was touring with his famous quartet and heard him play at the now defunct Jazz Workshop many times.  I one occasion I could have reached out and touched the bell of his horn if I had wanted to.  I'm a huge fan.

Your reaction pretty much mirrors Topround's who, by the way, I've spoken to by phone since his post so I take it as very good news.  By all means, anyone feel free to call or email me if you would like for any reason.  No, I haven't cut them anyway but what you see on my avatar but I've heard the argument for different interior shapes here and elsewhere.  I'm so enamored with what I hear at my listening position that I wouldn't think of messing around regardless of what others have suggested theoretically or practically.  But each to his own.  I would recommend that a buyer listens first to my product the way I do.  I have trimmed the borders to fit a customer's trapeziodal custom speaker and made a modification to the circle as described earlier.

Yes, they are removable with no residue left behind on a speaker surface.  I provide Velcro postage size tabs and instructions with every order.

I've fitted for Acoustic Zen Monitors, JM Focal Labs, a couple of pair of Opera's, some custom speakers made by an outfit in Chicago, some Coincident Technologies, a pair of Spendor 1/2's (I think that was the designation), some Mission stand mounts, a pair of Meridian M20's, two pair of Von Schweikert VR2's, some Harbeth two ways, Epos 3's, some Dynaudio Special 25's and I made some strips for some VMPS midrange planars.  I'm currently shipping out a pair for some Vienna Acoustics and for a prototype two way floorstander for a new speaker builder.  I'm expecting some drawings for another prototype floorstander from a different company.  I may revisit this post and stack those along with some others for an easier read.  And I'm going to visit your speakers manufacturer's website as soon as I sign off.  Cheers.  Jim     

[satfrat]

Jim, have you thought about dyeing the wool so's to better match the finish of the loudspeaker? That gray does tend to make them stick out and to my eye aren't all that appealing. That said, your AudioCircle pricing is much more of an appealing price and I would imagine can only help your sales. As for myself, I'm not sure what benefit these wool pad would be for my home theater system of 4 Odyessy Lorelei's. All tho at times I do lsten to music in stereo, for the most part all my listening is in Dolby Pro Logic 2x with the center channel Usher X-616 in the front shut off but the rear Usher x-616 left on.

Robin

[jimdgoulding]

Hey, Sat.  Nice to hear from you.  Boy, you are jamming in that small room of yours, huh?  I need to go to bed and won't have access to my computer till tomorrow night.  Let me respond to you then.  Thanks.  Jim

[satfrat]

It's only an 11' x 17' room with an open back to a dining room of simular size. I bet you'd be surprised just how huge & deep a soundfield this system can sound like with the combination of power conditioning & room treatment,,, like a mini concert hall. One might say I've gone overboard,,, til of course they listen. Has anyone tried your pads on surround loudspeakers?



Robin

[jimdgoulding]

Sat-  I probably wouldn't be surprised.  The depth of your room would allow for you to sit in a nice place even more important for surround sound I would think.  The grey color of my surrounds looks brighter in the picture than real life cause of the flash, but, yes, I have dyed a couple of pair in black and they came out nice.   Royal hassle, tho.  Go to www.audiophileaudition.com to read a review using a surround sound system and the editor uses some real four channel classical discs that might interest you.  Click on component reviews and scroll down to diffractionbegone.  The editor uses speakers with similar dimensions to yours.  I should think you would get very similar results.

What part of the country are you in?  FYI- I will go back on The Music Circle once I get an album library set up if I find anything that I think might interest someone. 

Have a look at that review and tell me what you think.  Cheers.  Jim   

[Audiovista]

Hi Jim,

You asked for a marketing advice in your first post.....well, it seems that what you're doing here is the right way to market your product....you know your product(s), you communicate in a clear, direct and non-confrontational manner, you're listening to your (existing and potential) customers, respond to their suggestions promptly and provide meaningful information without any BS.

It's a pleasure to have you in this circle. 

Boris

[satfrat]

Hi Jim

Yes I had already read that review along with any other comments that have been made about your product. It's too bad more folks haven't commented on the results from using your wool pads. Now for some qquestions, why are your wool pads covering the width of the loudspeakers instead of just covering the circular driver itself? From an esthetics point of view, i think it would look nicer than a rectangle patch of wool? I'm thinking you'll say something about the width of the wavelength being 7" so I'll ask my 2nd question now,,, just in case. If the length of your wool pads needs to be 7" or more, why is the length so important across the horizontal and not the vertical also? If the width is so important, I would think the wool pads should be 7" square, not a rectangle. The width of my Usher x-616 tweeter drivers are 4" and Lorelei's ScanSpeak 9700 drivers are 4 1/8". Circular pads covering these drivers would be an acceptable compromise, especially if they were to be dyed black to match the other driver.

Robin

[jimdgoulding]

Robin-  I will solicit some comments from future customers but I do want to keep my site compact on the advice of a salty old dog that’s been in the publishing business a long time and still thinks I’m a total amateur.  “Nobody’s gonna read any of that, boy.  Put a goddamned picture up there and not one of those peanut photos you showed me!”  I selected a mix of edited responses from customer and industry sources for what it’s worth.  But, I think I know where you’re coming from and may add more as I go. 

I believe that the key ingredients that make my surrounds successful are absorbency and mass.  I’ve seen evidence to support improvements both on and off axis in the frequency domain, heard it, too, as a more even balance and from more places than just my listening position, something that was unexpected to tell the truth, and I attribute this to the mass.  Waveforms simply have nothing to interact with at the point of departure.  No surface for reflection, diffraction, nada.  They was none at the microphone.  It’s best there is none at the speaker.  I don’t believe that a circle can do all the work that’s being done.

Most speaker cabinets have more culpable space to the sides of their tweeters than to the top of the cabinet or below to the next driver or between drivers in an over and under configuration, hence, the shape.  There are practical considerations, too.  As these are machine stamped and require that I purchase a template for every size, I had to start somewhere.  I own several templates now and have the flexibility to modify the width and height in house.

Our larger drivers are propagating waveforms longer in length that radiate around our enclosures and are reflected later in time.  And you have your room treatment for that.  It’s the first delivery of those frequencies that contain the leading edge and higher harmonics of your midrange and high frequency information that you can clean up with my surrounds.  John Dunlavy also asserted that listener fatigue is caused by early reflection mucking up the timing and delivery of harmonic information.  And blow me down if he didn’t use this shape on his SC-IV/A’s, his 6’ towers that image like a point source, so owners have told me, albeit for more reasons than discussed here.

I hope I’ve done a serviceable job of answering your questions.  I can dye them black.  Thank you for your interest, Sat man. 

Shout out to Boris . . Thank you, sir, that is very gracious.