[macrojack]

How about American Amplifier Idol. We can get Simon Cowell to scowell at all the entries until one of the other judges fudges and he can make his proclamation. Which one will go on to its own Stereophile prepaid review? Which is everything its promoters said it is? Which will go back to its sad life as a neighborhood favorite?

[Freo-1]

How about American Amplifier Idol. We can get Simon Cowell to scowell at all the entries until one of the other judges fudges and he can make his proclamation. Which one will go on to its own Stereophile prepaid review? Which is everything its promoters said it is? Which will go back to its sad life as a neighborhood favorite?

Will the units all require a "minimum MSRP" to qualify? 

Boy, do I miss "Audio" magazine, when reviews were based on engineering, not voodoo. 

[BrianM]

"What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier"

Hilarious...and true...

[BrianM]

How about American Amplifier Idol. We can get Simon Cowell to scowell at all the entries until one of the other judges fudges and he can make his proclamation. Which one will go on to its own Stereophile prepaid review? Which is everything its promoters said it is? Which will go back to its sad life as a neighborhood favorite?

Irony aside this alludes to a point I was thinking about, namely the impossibility of judging an insanely priced amp on its own terms.  It just moves the goalposts.  You don't have the speakers and dedicated this and that to do it justice, so shut up already.  My question is, did all of these big ticket rollouts happen more or less simultaneously along the way, or which category was the first to start pushing the price envelope (I assume loudspeakers)?  Does anyone remember the first insanely priced piece of gear?

[95bcwh]

wow!! 17 pages already!!!! 

This must be the thread of the year!!

[Freo-1]

How about American Amplifier Idol. We can get Simon Cowell to scowell at all the entries until one of the other judges fudges and he can make his proclamation. Which one will go on to its own Stereophile prepaid review? Which is everything its promoters said it is? Which will go back to its sad life as a neighborhood favorite?

Irony aside this alludes to a point I was thinking about, namely the impossibility of judging an insanely priced amp on its own terms.  It just moves the goalposts.  You don't have the speakers and dedicated this and that to do it justice, so shut up already.  My question is, did all of these big ticket rollouts happen more or less simultaneously along the way, or which category was the first to start pushing the price envelope (I assume loudspeakers)?  Does anyone remember the first insanely priced piece of gear?

Good question. A look through the old Audio buying guides would provide the answer. McIntosh had some pretty pricey stuff going back to the mid 70's, and some of the early audio research items were pretty high priced.

And yes, the 50 year old K-Horn would reveal a lot about an amplifier.  At 104db per watt, it will easily reveal flaws. I used to think that they were ear bleeders, but with the right valve amplification (and proper room setup, which a lot of us can not achieve), they are not half bad.

[bacobits1]

Some people (no names mentioned) here and other boards go through a lot of equipment and a lot of $$.  Why? Because they can.
If I had the money it wouldn't go for 30G amps.
I do look closely at the value for the dollar and I hear a lot of stuff much less than 30G that sounds damn good. It's in my room right now.

Problems come at resale value, it goes in the shitter.

I'd like to say more about some comments about a recent get together but I won't.

I also don't mind reading and hearing here on the board why any of this stuff is so high priced.

D

[Freo-1]

Some people (no names mentioned) here and other boards go through a lot of equipment and a lot of $$.  Why? Because they can.
If I had the money it wouldn't go for 30G amps.
I do look closely at the value for the dollar and I hear a lot of stuff much less than 30G that sounds damn good. It's in my room right now.

Problems come at resale value, it goes in the shitter.

I'd like to say more about some comments about a recent get together but I won't.

D

On most gear, but if it is McIntosh, not necessarily. Nothing has achieved cult status quite like McIntosh gear. 

[bacobits1]

Agreed, McIntosh and some of the Marantz equipment not much else though.

D

[Freo-1]

Agreed, McIntosh and some of the Marantz equipment not much else though.

D

Yes. I guess we could also throw in the H/K citation tube gear as well.

[macrojack]

Dynaco, Klipsch, QUAD, Linn - all have their own fanatics. I'm sure there are others that don't spring to mind just now.

Mark Levinson had a lot to do with the astronomical pricing movement. Krell jumped on board. Spectral played. Goldmund and Gryphon played into it. The first thing that comes to mind for me though, is that WAMM speaker. The price sounded insane back then. There were many iterations but by 1988 the MK VI was selling for $88,000.

[macrojack]

More cults: Sansui tuners, Kenwood tuners, Lenco turntables, Koetsu cartridges, Technics 1200.

Any other categories that I missed which show cult followings?

[BrianM]

Any other categories that I missed which show cult followings?

Zu?

[macrojack]

Maybe someday. Zu is a bit young to be granted cult status. They have some of the characteristics of cult products but nowhere near enough time in the marketplace. Check back in 20 years.

[Imperial]

For some people, there is a need to have what is considered the best.
You have many ways of getting your product in that classification..
One of the easiest ways is to price it on level with already established names..
It is an age old way, and it is what it is..

But, and there is talks about product pricing on all forums on any subject, not just audio..

There is another aspect on this topic.. if you manage to sell at the desired price, you make the money you
wanted for it, you can re-develop, you can improve, achieve your goals, and get where you set out to go.
If that was only into wealth... well, your product will soon reflect that, in many ways.

I tend not to put to much into what I read or even hear about a product before I get to talk with the people around it!
What is driving the designer? You can bet your ass the same thing is driving the product, reflected..

Also, if one want to really do it one's own way, that is costly, the product will be costly.
I guess it all boils down to how much one wants to sell one baby for..

I see Gryphon mentioned as a costly product. Gryphon is Danish, and I know Gryphon well.
I never thought about Gryphon as pricey!

Regardless of what everyone will think about the price of a product...
I pay much more attention to the price of the words of the designer... and what it costs him or her to speak them.

Maybe the designer is the silent type, letting his product speak for him...
I always thought that was worth paying for..

"The product spoke so great I'm completely dumbfounded!!!" - said the reviewer maybe...
"The designer talked and I found him dumb..." - said the reviewer maybe.. (maybe not in those words but..)

What would you rather pay lots of money for...

The best way to get someone to pay a high price is ... to not speak, set a high price and let the product show that it
is indeed worth a lot of money. Maybe not THAT much, but as a designer, one should not open one mouth and defend the price!

Wether we like it or not, sale is a bit of an art.
If you know you got something wort something to someone else...
Put a price on it, and the one with the required amount of ka-ching, will buy that thing...
Is it that easy?

The higher the price the higher the rate of people asking for the actual worth...
I'm told that question is also worth a lot of money..

Imperial

[Imperial]

And another thing...
If one thinks that a product costs more money than it is worth, and know of another less costly one that is just as good
and even better. Then you know what to do!

Again, the highest price is on the words, not the deed!

 aa

Imperial

[macrojack]

Imperial put a question in my head. Would product reviews turn out differently if the reviewer did not know the MSRP?

[TONEPUB]

Probably, but not in the way you think.

Reviewing an expensive piece of gear is very difficult, because we
(at least we do at TONE) try to figure out if we feel something is
really worth the extra money and if so, define what you are getting
for all that extra money.

There will always be plenty of you that still argue whether it is
or it isn't.

And we obviously have a clear cut example of someone who will argue
to the ends of the Earth that the really good stuff is not worth it,
so this is a losing argument.

This really is a pointless discussion, because you are convinced that
none of the best equipment on the market is worth the price that is
asked of it, because you have deemed it so.

So why bother?  Is this some kind of entertainment for you to
sit back and be smug about this?

There's a lot of great gear out there at many different prices and
a LOT of people that own it who are very happy with their purchases.

Why do you feel the need to keep beating this horse?

Components, raw materials and labor cost what they do.  Most high
end mfrs work on a multiplier of 3 to 5.  That is if an amplifier retails
for 10 thousand dollars, they have about 2-3 thousand in cost to build it.

It is then sold to their dealer who marks it up 30-40 percent, sometimes
an importer or distributor will take a cut out of this.  Sometimes a dealer
will have to move a product that is near it's lifespan for cost or maybe 10
points to get rid of it.

This is really pretty simple math and no secret knowledge.

If McIntosh or Rega or whoever, makes 30 or 40 percent gross profit
on selling you a turntable, that goes to keep the lights on, keep the spare
parts on the shelf and pays for advertising, trade shows like RMAF
where you guys can see the gear and ask questions.  And companies like
McIntosh keep spare parts back to day one to repair your 40 year old
amplifier if you need it.

No one in the high end is getting insanely rich by doing this and no
one is making huge piles of money off of the backs of a delusional
customer base.

Guys like Wilson and Lamm work around the same principle.

Why are you so bent out of shape over this?

If anybody is making big money its people like Adobe who sell you a one
dollar DVD with Photoshop Creative Suites that goes for 1600 bucks.

Why aren't you squealing about them?

Or what about Glaxo Wellcome who sells my mom a little bottle of
pills to keep her cancer at bay.  Those babies are six thousand dollars
a month for 30 pills.  I know there can't be 6k worth of crud in those
little pills.

This discussion is really getting tedious.  You don't get it, you don't
want to get it and you want to keep complaing.

Here's my thought:

Why don't you start an amplifier company and make a better product
than Mark Levinson or Krell and sell awesome 300 watt per channel
power amplifiers that are better than the majors make.

And sell them for a "reasonable" price like 995, or even 1995.

I'll give you free advertising in TONE Audio for the life of your company
and give you a five page review talking about how great your amp is
and how that it's WAY BETTER than my Conrad Johnson Premier 350
that cost 11 thousand bucks.

I've put my money where my mouth is now let's see what you
can do.

[TONEPUB]

Oh and a couple more things.

It has to be an amp I can buy from a DEALER for $1995, that
has a warranty and some assurance that you will be around
to fix it in five years if something goes wrong with it.

I can get that kind of service from any of the majors that
make overpriced gear....

This is the beauty of audio.

If you don't want to pay 10 thousand dollars for an amplifier,
you can build one yourself.  Most of the designs are out there.

You might not always be able to get the very best parts
that the big guys can get, but you can get pretty good stuff.

You can also buy your products from a smaller company that goes
direct and doesn't have a dealer network. 

Or you can buy used gear from one of the guys that goes through
amplifiers like you go through socks and take advantage of his
depreciation.

No one is putting a gun to your head and there are alternatives.

I'll be waiting for your new power amp to hit the market....

[Imperial]

Imperial put a question in my head. Would product reviews turn out differently if the reviewer did not know the MSRP?

Quite a lot of reviews have been done without the reviewer being aware of the price...
It does not seem to have any influence at all.
Sometimes you can read that the reviewer is surprised, but that's it, of the price that is..

Imperial