The "sound" of batteries??????

smccull · « **on:** 22 Sep 2007, 04:00 am »

Well, I'm almost completely "off the grid" and I'm loving it! Soon I plan to be 100% battery powered.

I have a Red Wine Audio Squeezebox DAC with digital mods (Thanks Vinnie!) that I've had for almost two years. I don't see myself getting rid of this thing anytime soon. I love the convenience of PC-based audio and the sound of this thing is terrific! From that I go into an Altmann Attraction DAC, which is easily the finest finest, most natural sounding DAC I've ever had in my setup. Unbelievable tone, presence and organic quality to this DAC's sound. All the reviews are right. It was a big step up from my Paradisea, which was no slouch. It took me a year to track down a good deal on this DAC and it was well worth the wait. I have the Altmann plugged into the extra SLA battery that Vinnie supplied me when I had the SB upgraded by him. I've never tried anything else, like an Optima Red or Yellow Top.

From there I go into a Promitheus TVC (passive) and then into an unmodded Trends TA 10.1. The Trends is a shocking piece of gear, especially for $150, really bringing a sense of warmth, dimensionality and presence to the overall sound. It sounds like good tube gear without any muddiness or slowness. I do miss the "bloom" and body of tubes, but I might add the Promitheus tube buffer to the mix one day. Don't get me wrong, my system isn't thin in the least, just maybe lacking that last bit of tube bloom that's so hard to shake. I know some of you will suggest RWA's Sig 30s but I just can't afford that right now. Besides, I'm pretty happy with the little Trends. I also plan to modify the Trends based on some of the threads here on AC.

But what got me thinking was a recent listening session with MikeC113, who brought over his Optima Yellow Top battery, with capacitor bank, to power the Trends. Oh my god! What a revelation running all this battery powered gear into my Omega MaxHemps. On well recorded tracks I could've sworn I was at RMAF listening to a very, very high end system worth five, ten maybe twenty times more than my setup. These budget pieces combined really are giant beaters. Unfortunately, Mike had to take his battery back home, which means I'm running the Trends on the cheap power supply it came with, but it still sounds pretty darn good. But I got to get back to all battery power. It's just too compelling!

So here's my question. Has anyone experimented with different types of batteries and do they really "sound" different? I've heard the Optima Red Top and Yellow Top batteries are great, maybe better than the SLA's, but they're also a bit of hassle. I'm worried my wife couldn't charge them when I'm on the road, and I'm not sure I want that thing into my living room. I like the simplicity of Vinnie's SLA batteries that automatically recharge when you turn the gear off. But would I be better off going up to the Optimas all around? Would they sound appreciably better?

With Optimas I might have more time between chargings. This isn't a deal killer with the SLA's since they're so user friendly, but could be an issue with Optimas. Also, is there any way I can run all three components, SB, DAC and Trends, from a single Optima? If so, would I need to perform frequent chargings? If I did this, would all three benefit from a capacitor bank? Is this suggested?

Any other thoughts, ideas or experiences are also appreciated.

Going bravely forth into the world of DC.....

Steve

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:10 am »

Steve,

Yep. You are absolutely right I am listening right now to the modified Altmann Attraction DAC with an Optima Yellow Top deep cycle battery. The analog sound is so revealing and so musical to die for. To be honest I have never listened to any DACs like this battery powered before.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:19 am »

tanchiro58...

Quote

I am listening right now to the modified Altmann Attraction DAC...

In what way was it "modified" ? Thanks.........

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:33 am »

Lonewolfny42,

The Altmann Attraction DAC is modified by an Audiogoner. He replaced the Wima 3.3uF which were located near the RCA outputs with two huge ASC 100uF/375V oil caps and took out the two small silver caps (nearby the DAC chip) and the relay (white).

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:36 am »

Quote from: tanchiro58 on 22 Sep 2007, 05:33 am

Lonewolfny42,

The Altmann Attraction DAC is modified by an Audiogoner. He replaced the Wima 3.3uF which were located near the RCA outputs with two huge ASC 100uF/375V oil caps and took out the two small silver caps (nearby the DAC chip) and the relay (white).

Thanks for the info...

And the difference you notice ? (soundwise)

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:44 am »

Quote

And the difference you notice ? (soundwise)

Lonewolfny42,

To be honest I have not listened to the original DAC but based on the previous owner of the DAC he told me it has better deep bass. Mid and high have more focused and defined. I notice that too in my system.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:48 am »

OK....thanks Tan....

I have hear a stock Altmann....and in that form I did enjoy it....and didn't mind "its looks".

TONEPUB · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 06:42 am »

My main experience with battery power has been my ASR phono stage and
it really sounds a lot cleaner with battery power than the line...

Wish I could go all that way, but can't right now.

However, I do think it's a step in the right direction!

rajacat · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 04:50 pm »

I wonder if there would be a market for a high quality and reasonably priced

regulated 5 volt battery power supply for the Squeezebox? Channel Islands just introduced a grid powered PS for the SB but I'll bet that there would be at least equal demand for a battery powered version. I certainly would be interested in one.

bprice2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 22 Sep 2007, 04:50 pm

I wonder if there would be a market for a high quality and reasonably priced regulated 5 volt battery power supply for the Squeezebox? Channel Islands just introduced a grid powered PS for the SB but I'll bet that there would be at least equal demand for a battery powered version. I certainly would be interested in one.

Just for the record, I'd also be interested in such a device. I'm intersted in putting together a system that I can use at outdoor events, parties, camping.... I suppose some kind of battery array would be the ticket, but I wouldn't know where to start.

Sorry to get off topic, but does anyone know if there is such a thing as a (sub)woofer that could be run off battery power?

pardales · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Sep 2007, 07:50 pm »

I too would like an answer to the original post. Sorry but I have nothing to contribute in the way of an answer. The Altmann gear and battery power changed everything for me. The only thing regularly plugged in, in my system is my hard-drive. For late night listening I even unplug my computer and let it run on battery.

Originally I was a little put off by the Optima Battery in my rack. Now, its not a big deal and I only charge it once every two weeks. The new battery/charging system Vinnie has introduced on his .2 line sounds great. I wonder if he could cook something up that would do what is being talked about here.

smccull · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Sep 2007, 05:22 am »

Quote from: pardales on 22 Sep 2007, 07:50 pm

Originally I was a little put off by the Optima Battery in my rack. Now, its not a big deal and I only charge it once every two weeks. The new battery/charging system Vinnie has introduced on his .2 line sounds great. I wonder if he could cook something up that would do what is being talked about here.

I wonder how often I would have to charge mine if I ran my Altmann and Trends off the same battery. Anyone have any ideas?

It would be simpler if Vinnie could cook something up. Might have to give him a call.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Sep 2007, 06:04 am »

Hi Steve,

I think once a week would probably be fine. I had a red top in a Land Cruiser, went skiing and left the headlights on in sub-freezing weather for 8 hours. It fired right up when I got back, and I was running a high compression V8.

The RWA smart circuit is pretty neat, and makes it "idiot proof" but you can rig up a manual switch that activates a relay (dpdt). When the switch is in the on position, it would activate the relay, a led, and connect the battery power to the components. When the switch is off the led would turn off, the relay would turn off, and the battery would be reconnected to the charger. It would also be a one switch solution for turning everything on and off. You could buy a metal box to house the battery, charger, relay and wiring... Its also a safer way to do it because if you connect a battery charger to the battery while the components are hooked up you will feed them ~14 V which might be a bit too much, the Trends has a 13.2 V max. I doubt it will smoke the amp, but I don't want to find out. The relay physically prevents both the components and the charger from being hooked up to the battery at the same time. I would get an automatic charger rather than a trickle charger as well.

The capacitors make an audible difference too.

I could possibly create something in my spare time if you want...

Dave

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Sep 2007, 10:51 am »

I had a couple of RWA products, including a full SB3 mod (with A/C during battery charging) but never heard a difference. The bigger question here should be, what quality of A/C are you coming from?

Currently we're in a two year old house in the country (no major industry nearby) with its own underground feed that required its own transformer. All appliances are new, all wiring is 12 gauge/20 amp circuits, we have a whole house surge protector, and I have three dedicated circuits for audio (each feeding a single cryo'd hospital grade duplex receptacle and tied to a separate ground). Under this pretty much ideal setup I didn't hear a difference between A/C and batteries.

I did hear a difference in my old place (50 year old house, crummy wiring, in suburb) with a PS300 in place, but frankly wasn't worth it in that setting IMO until you had over $50k invested in room and equipment.

I have heard crummy A/C (an older light industrial area). You could hear the difference when the factories shut down Friday 11pm for the weekend, everything cleared up with all sorts of grunge removed.

With horrible A/C batteries is a better answer than fancy/expensive power conditioners/supplies, but the real/first question should be how lousy is the A/C to start with. I suggested to Dusty that a battery charger/power distributor to multiple components might make a good offering since he just released a SB power supply.

smccull · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Sep 2007, 03:48 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 23 Sep 2007, 06:04 am

The RWA smart circuit is pretty neat, and makes it "idiot proof" but you can rig up a manual switch that activates a relay (dpdt). When the switch is in the on position, it would activate the relay, a led, and connect the battery power to the components. When the switch is off the led would turn off, the relay would turn off, and the battery would be reconnected to the charger. It would also be a one switch solution for turning everything on and off. You could buy a metal box to house the battery, charger, relay and wiring... Its also a safer way to do it because if you connect a battery charger to the battery while the components are hooked up you will feed them ~14 V which might be a bit too much, the Trends has a 13.2 V max. I doubt it will smoke the amp, but I don't want to find out. The relay physically prevents both the components and the charger from being hooked up to the battery at the same time. I would get an automatic charger rather than a trickle charger as well.

The capacitors make an audible difference too.

I could possibly create something in my spare time if you want...

Dave

Dave, this is exactly what I was thinking, in fact it's what I have with Vinnie's battery setup on the SB. I have this sneaking suspicion that if I get everything on an Optima even the SB will sound better, and having it all charge with one switch is the kind of elegant solution I'm looking for. I just don't have the chops to put it all together. Maybe it's something we can work on together if you're up for it.

I haven't hooked the subs up yet. Started yesterday but ran out of time. Had some errands to run. Will try to get to it today if my back cooperates. I strained something working in the yard yesterday.

I'll email you my phone number again. Call me when you get a chance. I want to better understand your ideas for the battery solution.

Cheers!

Steve

DaveC113 · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Sep 2007, 03:54 pm »

Its not just the AC, its the power supply itsself... I have no doubt that a properly built (read $$$$) AC power supply will be better than a battery. I think its far more cost effective to have battery power rather than upgrade the ps on all your components. The difference between a GOOD smps vs a battery is subtle running the Trends amp, but it is quite noticeable, and very hard to go back once you've heard the difference. Steve's system running on battery power is pretty impressive

If you can't hear a difference, than you have BOTH good AC and very well built power supplies, or... well, we won't go there

Dave

Helge Gundersen · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Sep 2007, 07:57 pm »

I use the Attraction DAC with an Optima Red Top. I have been reading (particularly on the AA) about the use of a bunch of capacitors in parallell between the battery posts to reduce the impedance of the battery and in this way improve transients.

I'm not a DIY'er and have also very limited knowledge about electrical things. I wonder how you make such a capacitor bank, how you connect it to the battery. I guess this is question for Dave in particular.

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Sep 2007, 08:29 pm »

I am using the modded Altmann Attraction DAC with Optima Yellow Top Deep Cycle battery and I like the combination. However, to be fully sure I have ordered the RWA SLA with SMART module to use with both Attraction DAC and BYOB amp without a risk of total DC drainage.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 01:37 am »

Helge, I'm just learning myself, but from what I've read on here (theres a thread in the lab section... I forget which one, search batteries and you'll probably find it) matching caps with batteries in the audio spectrum is impossible as far as having a flat impedance vs frequency curve. You might or might not like the effect. This is what I was told by an actual amp designer and builder. I have noticed better frequency extension with the capacitors, both high and low. Otherwise I have gotten no information regarding this, but the basics are that you are lowering the internal resistance of the ps, and superimposing the impedence curve of the caps on the battery. For the Trends amp, I am using 4 2200 uf Electrolytics and 3 180 uF Tantalum caps, and I should probably add an even faster film cap to the mix, which I will next time I'm at the electronics store. The theory being that the electrolytics have a higher esr than the film caps, but come in larger values. The Trends is a very small amp so I didn't use very many caps, and the Optima batteries already have a very low esr.

Maybe someone with more experience can help out here?

Dave

smccull · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Sep 2007, 02:08 am »

tanchiro, i'll be very interested to hear your thoughts on the SLA vs. Optima shootout.