[Steve Eddy]

Further web searching dug up this reference to dielectric absorption constants See link http://www.clippercontrols.com/info/dielectric_constants.html

Yes, that's the same table that's found on dozens of websites out there and I've never been able to determine its original source.

How ever the dielectric absorption changes when cotton or silk is formed into textile tubing according to the above reference cotton has a DA constant of 1.3-1.4 and silk is 2.5 to 3.5 none of which changes the fact that the stuff sounds good.

Well, "sounds good" depends on the individual. Some prefer cotton and silk, others prefer Teflon, etc. So there's no absolute there. And as I said, I prefer cotton and silk over Teflon myself. But if people are going to cite things like the dielectric constant of cotton and silk, it should be made in the proper context.

se

[Steve Eddy]

You can always second guess and say something else could have been better.

Sure.

Having a limited amount of time, I can only do so much.

Fair 'nuff.

Anyhow, as far as seeing no difference between signal and ground, thats not how I see it. Ground is defined as a reference, while the positive and negative voltage swings in the signal wire are the music signal.

"Ground" is the reference for the circuitry inside the components that's generating, sending, and receiving the signal. But when you're talking about an interconnect or speaker cable, what you're talking about is the propagation of a signal down the cable. And within that realm, i.e. between the two ends of the cable, there is no "ground." What you have is a transverse electromagnetic wave propagating down the cable.

There are reasons I chose to use a heavier gage ground wire, the functions of the 2 wires are different.

Not as far as propagating a signal down the cable is concerned.

Now, as far as being "close to air" as a dielectric, cotton is less homogenious than teflon, and I'd argue that there is less actual contact between the cotton insulation and the conductor compared to plastic insulation.

Yes, there may be less actual surface contact between the two, but as I said previously in a reply to Douglas, the signal does not travel on the surface of the wire. The signal is made up of the electric and magnetic fields which radiate outward from the surface of the wire. And the signal is affected by the medium which surrounds the wires, not just that which is touching the surface of the wires.

This means that even if there is less actual surface contact by the cotton or silk compared to Teflon, if the dielectric constant of the cotton or silk are higher than that of Teflon, then they will have a greater effect on the signal than the Teflon all else being equal.

The dielectric constant might not be as accurate of a tool as you think for measuring audible changes in insulation material... just like LCR specs won't tell you everything about how an IC or speaker cable will sound.

Nothing that I said had anything to do with how a cable may or may not sound. I was responding to the statement that using cotton or silk would give you an insulator closer to that of air compared to plastic insulators such as Teflon. I was simply explaining why that's not necessarily the case.

se

[AdamM]

Dave, Scotty, Steve, RAM:  Thanks for all the info and insight!  I appreciate your comments and by luck, my components happen to be similar to many of your suggestions.

Here's a brief breakdown:
Speaker wires:   (pictures tomorrow, it's late..)

• 30 AWG 'four 9's' pure silver wire
• unbleached cotton insulator (what a pain to stuff wire into!)
• poly hose tubing as a protector/moisture guard
• 3 unbraided parallel insulated leads per line, 6 total per channel
• high silver content solder for the ends
• each line is free, and not connected or entwined with the other side in any way

Interconnects: In progress

• same wire / insulator / etc
• Eichmann silver bullet RCA ends (they're not shielded...?)
  

How do the speaker cables sound?  Great!  But, i haven't compared them that properly yet...  They were replacing some mid range Kimber 8 conductor woven rope lines i had kicking around.  I'll do some more in depth comparisons.  I'm not sure my rig, and definitely not my room, are of high enough resolution to reveal much of a difference, but let's see.

I can say for very certain - silver conducts a lot better and it's incredibly obvious when soldering.  The wire sucks out so much heat from the solder tip, and it burns your fingers, even when you hold the wire a number of inches away.  It's quite surprising.   Never had that happen with copper...

My DIY RAW HT8 speakers are wired up with this very same stuff.

I got a deal on the wire... the cotton insulator was almost as expensive!!

[*Scotty*]

AdamM, I would strongly advise you to not put the poly hose tubing on the outside of your cable as a protector/moisture guard before listening to the cable without it in place.
Its presence may undo the usage of the cotton insulator and you just might be able to hear it crap up all your hard work.

    * each line is free, and not connected or entwined with the other side in any way

  You have chosen zero geometry and as such you have added no capacitance to compensate for the individual conductors inductance. Twisting the positive and negative conductors together will help add capacitance and balance out your cables.
You should at least try a simple twisted pair geometry. On a 1 meter pair of ICs it might add 10 to 15 minutes of labor per IC.
Scotty

[Steve Eddy]

unbleached cotton insulator (what a pain to stuff wire into!)

You need a bodkin.



I also use 30 gauge wire and these work well as a bodkin.

se

[DaveC113]

"Ground" is the reference for the circuitry inside the components that's generating, sending, and receiving the signal. But when you're talking about an interconnect or speaker cable, what you're talking about is the propagation of a signal down the cable. And within that realm, i.e. between the two ends of the cable, there is no "ground." What you have is a transverse electromagnetic wave propagating down the cable.

There are reasons I chose to use a heavier gage ground wire, the functions of the 2 wires are different.

Not as far as propagating a signal down the cable is concerned.

Interesting... so the ground wire in the rca jacks, which is combined to a common ground inside the components that it goes to and from, serves some different function when run as an IC or speaker cable? What if the the signal and ground wire were seperated by a great enough distance that their magnetic fields could no longer interact? Then what function would the ground serve? I can gaurantee you the signal will still propagate through the wire. If what you are saying is true, then the ground plane would need to be paired with the signal all the way through the chain, which it isn't. I will have to disagree that ground changes function while outboard of the chassis, although it does interact with the signal as a result of the cable's geometry.

AdamM, as far as ICs, I have found I like the sound of ICs better when the signal wires do not run parallel with the ground wire.      

Dave

[brj]

I've read about the general conductivity and other properties of different metals in the past, but I've never had time to delve into the properties of the various oxides and other compounds that can form when those metals are exposed to air.  With that in mind, how does that affect the insulation selection?  Would I be correct in assuming that air won't easily permeate Teflon and similar plastics, whereas cotton and silk are comparatively very porous?

[Steve Eddy]

Interesting... so the ground wire in the rca jacks, which is combined to a common ground inside the components that it goes to and from, serves some different function when run as an IC or speaker cable?

Well just consider this. What if we're talking about a balanced interface? Neither of the wires are tied to ground. What changes as far as the cables are concerned? Nothing.

What if the the signal and ground wire were seperated by a great enough distance that their magnetic fields could no longer interact?

Then you no longer have a cable. You've got a honkin' big inductor.

Then what function would the ground serve?

As I said, the notion of separate "signal" and "ground" is irrelevant as far as the cable itself is concerned.

I can gaurantee you the signal will still propagate through the wire.

You think? Put a big honkin' inductor in series with your cable and see how much signal you get out the other end.

If what you are saying is true, then the ground plane would need to be paired with the signal all the way through the chain, which it isn't. I will have to disagree that ground changes function while outboard of the chassis, although it does interact with the signal as a result of the cable's geometry.

What I'm saying is that the notion of their being a distinctly separate "signal" and "ground" conductor or a distinctly separate "send" and "return" conductor is irrelevant with respect to propagating a signal down a cable.

AdamM, as far as ICs, I have found I like the sound of ICs better when the signal wires do not run parallel with the ground wire.   

Don't be a smartass. That's my gig.

se

[Daygloworange]

Would I be correct in assuming that air won't easily permeate Teflon and similar plastics, whereas cotton and silk are comparatively very porous?

I've heard that Teflon is actually permeable to air, on more than one occasion.

I think that there are teflon coated wires that are then PVC coated to prevent oxidation.

Not sure though.

Cheers

[Gordy]

I've heard that Teflon is actually permeable to air, on more than one occasion.
I think that there are teflon coated wires that are then PVC coated to prevent oxidation.
Not sure though.

Cheers

Actually Teflon has excellent resistance to oxygen (and just about everything else!) whereas PVC is rated as good. Still much better than PE or PP which are both rated as poor for gas resistance. HTH!

[kyrill]

wow   interesting read, internet at its best ( except chatting with a beautiful unknown lady )

Steve your sig:  manufacturer
is there a link between yr electrical knowledge and yr sig?

my intuition says that

is right in assuming the thinner the coating,the better the sound as the non air dielectric ( and other factors) can only negatively effect the sound

so having cores of magnet wire coated with teflon will be (much) better than teflon tubing?
for instance
http://www.a-msystems.com/electronics/wire/silvertef.aspx

[Steve Eddy]

Steve your sig:  manufacturer
is there a link between yr electrical knowledge and yr sig?

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Can you elaborate a bit?

Thanks!

se

[Bill Baker]

Hi kryill

 If you click on the "Q" under the word manufacturer in Steve's signature, you will understand what it means. The "Q" is a link to his website.

[Steve Eddy]

If you click on the "Q" under the word manufacturer in Steve's signature, you will understand what it means. The "Q" is a link to his website.

Thanks. And that's what I thought he meant at first too. But if you read it carefully, it doesn't seem that that's quite what he was asking.

se