Help! I have a bad room...

bpape · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 Oct 2007, 01:52 pm »

Agreed. I was trying to stay within the panels he already had.

If I was to start from scratch, I'd use solid triangular chunk style absorbers in the corners instead of the quarter rounds and use 2 panels on each side wall for the reflection of each speaker on each wall. The ones on the front wall may or may not be needed to deal with SBIR issues.

Bryan

nrenter · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 Oct 2007, 02:29 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't committed to pannels, yet. I'm sure the solid wedges would have better acoustical properties, but I have to balance function and form - this is one of the first rooms seen when entering the house. The quarter-rounds pass the WAF test (barely). The wedges fail.

I walked around the room with a mirror last night looking for reflection points. The first reflection points should fall before the door (closer to the speakers).

Thanks for all the help.

nrenter · « **Reply #22 on:** 12 Nov 2007, 12:29 am »

I know the audio community is just waiting for my next post in this thread. So, without further adieu...

Here's what I'm going to try...

(3) Geometrix 4' quarter round bass traps (2 on walls, one on floor)
(2) Sonora 2' x 4' x 2" wall panels (side walls)
(1) Sonora 6' x 4' x 2" wall panel (rear wall)

I'm going to put the 3rd quarter round on the floor under the desk. I'll probably place my order in the morning. I'm thinking about going with a lovely Guilford of Maine Leaf (755) fabric covering. I think it should look nice with brazilian cherry wood floors, a rust rug, and dark wood furniture.

I received a pair of Green Mountain Audio Calllisto speakers, and have ordered an Ayre AX-7e integrated amp, Ayre CX-7e CD player, and an Ayre P-5xe phono stage. Purist Musaeus cables throughout. Since I'm blowing my budget anyways, I may go for a Teres 265, Origin Live Sliver and an Denon 103R and just be done with it.

AB · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 05:07 am »

Quote from: nrenter on 12 Nov 2007, 12:29 am

Since I'm blowing my budget anyways, I may go for a Teres 265, Origin Live Sliver and an Denon 103R and just be done with it.

I like your attitude.

bpape · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 12:07 pm »

Congrats.

Make sure to post some pics when you get things all finished.

Bryan

TomS · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 02:21 pm »

Quote from: nrenter on 12 Nov 2007, 12:29 am

I received a pair of Green Mountain Audio Calllisto speakers, and have ordered an Ayre AX-7e integrated amp, Ayre CX-7e CD player, and an Ayre P-5xe phono stage. Purist Musaeus cables throughout. Since I'm blowing my budget anyways, I may go for a Teres 265, Origin Live Sliver and an Denon 103R and just be done with it.

Wow, you're not kidding around. That's going to be a sweet setup. Congrats! Tom

doug s. · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 08:53 pm »

Quote from: nrenter on 12 Nov 2007, 12:29 am

...I received a pair of Green Mountain Audio Calllisto speakers, and have ordered an Ayre AX-7e integrated amp, Ayre CX-7e CD player, and an Ayre P-5xe phono stage. Purist Musaeus cables throughout. Since I'm blowing my budget anyways, I may go for a Teres 265, Origin Live Sliver and an Denon 103R and just be done with it...

a few comments:
-the room looks great!

-excellent new system, but where are the tubes?

-have you heard this stuff? and a lot of stuff to compare it to? reason why i am asking, is i think it quite risky to be buying new gear, unless you are wery familiar w/it, & know you're gonna be keeping it a long time. here's one reason/example:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1200169476
ayre cx7 cdp $1595 shipped...

of course, you may be the exception around here!

most of us folks like to try new (ie: different) gear somewhat frequently, & most of us can only afford to if we buy & sell used gear that has awreddy taken the depreciation hit.

doug s.

nrenter · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 09:20 pm »

Where are the tubes? Well, I've had tubes for years and loved them. I mean really loved them. However, there are compromises I'm willing to make becasue 1) I want something I can leave on 24x7, 2) I need something that doesn't generate as much heat, 3) I don't want to continuously wonder if a NOS set of Pope 6SN7s sound better than my NOS RCAs or if my 12BZ7s are aging and need to be replaced, and 4) I want hardware that doesn't require as much real estate.

I have my reasons for buying new - some are logical and some are personal. I am more than familiar with Audiogon, as I've sold a fair amount of equipment there. We each have our own personal value drivers and agendas, and my are fulfilled by purchasing new.

I've put a lot of thought into this system with the hopes it allows me to focus on the music and not the gear. With everything else in this hobby, YMMV.

doug s. · « **Reply #28 on:** 13 Nov 2007, 10:49 pm »

i am glad to hear all this - i was yust checking, cuz, w/a small number of posts here, & your initial questions re: your room, it seemed there was a possibility you were a newbie, jumping in head-first, before learning to swim.

i have seen this happen before, only to see unhappy audiophiles who have spent way more than they shoulda, before getting themselves on track to what made them happy.

best,

doug s.

Quote from: nrenter on 13 Nov 2007, 09:20 pm

Where are the tubes? Well, I've had tubes for years and loved them. I mean really loved them. However, there are compromises I'm willing to make becasue 1) I want something I can leave on 24x7, 2) I need something that doesn't generate as much heat, 3) I don't want to continuously wonder if a NOS set of Pope 6SN7s sound better than my NOS RCAs or if my 12BZ7s are aging and need to be replaced, and 4) I want hardware that doesn't require as much real estate.

I have my reasons for buying new - some are logical and some are personal. I am more than familiar with Audiogon, as I've sold a fair amount of equipment there. We each have our own personal value drivers and agendas, and my are fulfilled by purchasing new.

I've put a lot of thought into this system with the hopes it allows me to focus on the music and not the gear. With everything else in this hobby, YMMV.

nrenter · « **Reply #29 on:** 14 Nov 2007, 03:31 am »

Thanks for the advice. I've been stalking this system since I sold off my last.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #30 on:** 17 Nov 2007, 01:29 am »

I'm building a new house (...which has dragged on for too many months....), but should be in early next year. Even though I have an unfinished basement -- which could house a wonderful dedicated listening room -- budget is going to force my dedicated listening room to be set up in a spare bedroom, with dimensions very similar to yours.

I've been watching this forum for months now, and plan to do something to treat the room. Your findings of before and after treatment will be of keen interest to me, so please keep us informed of your findings. Thanks, Kent

nrenter · « **Reply #31 on:** 17 Nov 2007, 02:23 am »

I most definately will. My wall panels will arrive in probably another 3 or 4 weeks. I can say that the 6' x 9' wool rug was definately a step in the right direction - but I still have a ways to go. I'm hoping the panels will take enough of the echo out of the room to make it acceptable for nearfield listening. I did have one last change before I placed my order - I went with GOM 754 Light Moss as the fabric.

Another update...I did not go with the Teres 265. Chris at Teres is putting together a "custom" table for me (basically a Teres 245 on steroids):

- Cocobolo Base
- Cocobolo Armboard (drilled for an Origin Live tonearm)
- Cocobolo Clamp
- Clear Acrylic platter
- Verus Motor

I figure what I’m giving up from the platter design is more than made up by the Verus motor (compared to the Teres 255 I used to own). Can you tell I'm pretty excited?

Once I get everything placed in the room, I'll post pictures.

nrenter · « **Reply #32 on:** 11 Dec 2007, 03:00 am »

My panels arrived today!!!! I just got them installed per the room diagram posted on November 12, 2007. I'll post pictures via my Audiogon system profile later this week, and link them here. I'll also post thoughts on my system / setup after I give it ample time to burn in and I'm able to play with speaker placement (small movements have large impacts). This probably won't happen until after the 1st of the year, though.

nrenter · « **Reply #33 on:** 11 Dec 2007, 08:45 pm »

My System

Nils · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 Dec 2007, 11:12 pm »

Wow, good work! You did well with the space you had, and the system itself is amazing.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Dec 2007, 11:37 pm »

Quote from: nrenter on 11 Dec 2007, 03:00 am

My panels arrived today!!!! I just got them installed per the room diagram posted on November 12, 2007. I'll post pictures via my Audiogon system profile later this week, and link them here. I'll also post thoughts on my system / setup after I give it ample time to burn in and I'm able to play with speaker placement (small movements have large impacts). This probably won't happen until after the 1st of the year, though.

Looks great. I'm looking forward to reading your listening comments. Q: Are the corners triangle or flat panel? Who makes them??? Thanks, Kent

nrenter · « **Reply #36 on:** 12 Dec 2007, 12:26 am »

The panels in the corners are GEOMETRIX quarter-round bass traps. They are 8" in diameter and 4' in height. I ordered my panels from Acoustics First. All wall panels have a half-bevel edge.

So far, I'm really amazed on what some room treatments can do, and given my room geometry, I'm sure I could use more. However, I have to balance my need for a listening room / office and my wife's need of an aesthetically acceptable room that is seen immediately when entering the house.

Not that it is surprising, but it's still not that hard to "overload" the room with too much volume and too complex of music. That being said, I'm still thrilled with where the "project" is going. It's a *huge* improvement. My wife calls it "creepy" on how different the room sounds (she couldn't stand how live the room was either).

If you have the chance, put one ear next to a sound absorptive panel in a supposedly quiet room....and hear what silence really is.

nrenter · « **Reply #37 on:** 6 Feb 2008, 08:21 pm »

It's been a while, so I thought I'd post a bit about my system, my room, and what I've learned.

When I began this thread, I really didn't think it was going to be possible to get good sound in my less-than-ideal room. I mean, my room is basically a cube - it doesn't get much worse than that. For those with spare bedrooms and offices that double as listening spaces, I hope this thread reassures you that it is possible to create a satisfying space in less-than-ideal conditions.

While it's not the most sexy way to spend $1000, I can say that my sound panels were some of the best money spent in my room. If you plan on ordering panels from any supplier with Guilford of Maine acoustical fabric, it is a must to have fabric swatches sent to you, and evaluate these swatches in every lighting condition imaginable. My wife and I changed our minds 5 or 6 times before deciding on our final selection. Even then, we were still nervous about our choice.

Bass traps are essential in this size of room. As you can see from my diagram, I have (3) 4' quarter-round bass traps in my room: (2) mounted on the walls in the corners behind my speakers 12" off the floor, and (1) lying on the floor under my desk on the far side of the room. The problem with the bass traps immediately behind my Green Mountain Audio Callisto speakers is that they absorb too much bass from my speakers. Ideally, these bass traps would have been on the opposite wall, but my room setup prohibited this.

This leads into the second purchase that significantly bettered the sound in my room - a pair of Martin Logan Dynamo subwoofers. If I was reading this post, I'd be thinking, "Why the hell do you need 2 subs in an 11' cube room. That's crazy talk." Well, with 2 powered subs 1) I can get that low-end slam that you can't get alone with monitor speakers, 2) I get extended lows well into the 20s, and 3) between placement considerations and the fact I run one sub 90-degrees out-of-phase, I can adjust the sub crossovers and output level so I can get a bit of cancellation at the 50 Hz node in the room.

This is not to say the system response (equipment + room) is perfectly smooth and consistant everywhere in the room. However, when you are listening in the near field (and because of the room constraints, you are only going to sitting in one spot when listening), the sound only has to be good at one point in the room. When you look at the "problem" from that perspective, the challenge isn't as daunting.

Also, consider carefully the equipment you plan to use when listening in the nearfield in a small room. I am currently chasing down a bit of hum (only in my analog section) that started when I added the subs to my system. If I was in a larger space, I probably would never really notice it. However, compared to the blackness of the background of my digital section (and the blackness of the background of my analog section when my subs are powered down), it's something I hear. I think it's my cartridge being affected by my unshielded subs...I need to do more investigating. My point is that, personally, I would not be happy with any tube equipment that had any audible tube rush.

I really appreciate all the help I received in this forum. Please let me know if I can ever return the favor.

- Nicholas

satfrat · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Feb 2008, 08:46 pm »

nrenter, you've done a nice job on that room, congratulations are in order.

I'm wondering if you've considered addressing the ceiling/wall corners? You would be surprised how just addressing these loading points will further improve your room. I use 8th Nerve Adapt Rectangles for the walls and I would also be using Adapter Triangles if I had the corner room for them. The Rectangles were the first room treatment I had tried to I can attest to their usefulness but there are other panesl that address these areas and it's an area you should look into, imho. From the Eighth Nerve website, these are the areas of question, just in case there is a question of what i'm refering to.

Cheers,
Robin

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #39 on:** 7 Feb 2008, 04:57 am »

I'm very happy you've found acoustic nivana in that room. I'm just dropping in the say I love the rug, your GMA's, the fact that your front end side walls are uniform and pretty clear, and that you use an open legged desk and chair. I bet the whole thing takes off! If I could grant you a wish, it would be some additional room length. But, whadda you gonna do? Looks like you've done it with what you've got. Plantation shutters are a good idea in my expereince, too.