[NewBuyer]

Naive question: Why not instead invest all that money into buying a Transporter?

[AliG]

Because different people have different ways of spending their money...

Some people like to buy a Toyota and spend $20k converting it to become something they like better than a BMW, some people just buy a BMW and be happy with it.

Naive question: Why not instead invest all that money into buying a Transporter?

[bhobba]

Naive question: Why not instead invest all that money into buying a Transporter?

Expense.  They are nearly $2000.  If you plan to use it to feed a DAC a Squeezebox and a Steve Nugent pacecar will give you a source with better (by which I mean pretty much state of the art) performance for less cost.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42526.0

Those looking at upgrading the power supply hope to get better performance without spending the money on something like a pacecar.  Wayne's power supply plus mods costs more than a pacecar - hence my reservations about it for use as a digital source.  Hugh's is a bit cheaper - but at 2/3 the cost a pacecar it begins to look not that cheap.

Using the built in DAC shifts the cost performance to an upgraded power supply, as people claim with a proper power supply it sounds better than an external DAC, or a transporter using its internal DAC's.

Bottom line, IMHO, if you are looking at an external DAC, get a pacecar instead of an upgraded supply and digital mods.  If you want to listen to the internal DAC, try out one of the power supplies - it will probably give you better performance for less money than a transporter.

I am shifting towards an external DAC, so the pacecar option is looking good.  I have a lot of respect for Hugh Dean, but $800 dollars for his power supply, and anther $500 for mods to the squeezebox, unfortunately is not cost effective.

If I wanted to listen though the internal DAC that would be another matter.

Thanks
Bill

[bpape]

In my experience with the Squeezebox, the power supply can yield the one of the biggest improvements for the money.  Even the stock Elpac is a significant step up from the crappy switcher that comes with it.  Sorry, but noise is noise in the power supply and all the nasties it causes in the circuitry of the SB - digital or analog out.

I'd love to see some of the scope plots of the difference between the stock switcher and even the stock Elpac.  Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure what Art did in the internal SB power supply is a significant step up in performance.  To continue the car analogy, I may have tweaked the engine to add 50% performance but if I'm still feeding it 87 octane fuel, am I really getting what I've paid for?

Bryan

[NewBuyer]

The Transporter can be had for $1700 from a dealer with free shipping. 

It just seems like with its:
- much better AK4396 DAC;
- outstanding internal linear power regulation;
- balanced connection options;
- external DAC functionality;
- ability to play 24/96 files;
- simultaneous dual stereo outputs (both balanced and RCA always active);
- excellent front-panel control options and two high-res VFD's;
- single-box/single-powercord;
- very high quality internal master clocking;
- extremely low internal jitter;
- ethernet connection (isolated, buffered, not dependent on another device's clock);
- no inter-device S/PDIF concerns or associated transfer jitter;
- optical/coax/BNC/AES-EBU digital input/outputs;
- wordclock and RS-232;
- internal attenuation pads (for those that need them);
- etc etc

Well it just seems (to me) like a much better investment.

I recently heard the Transporter in my system also, and for this price, I can't imagine better DAC performance than this.

It looks really cool too! 

Edit: Pics

[DSK]

If you need some of the features of the Transporter then it may be a better option for you than the SB2/3.

However, from a performance point of view (ears not scopes) even Wayne has admitted that he can't get the Transporter to outperform a modded SB2/3.

When you consider that TomS had a $9k front end (Wadia 861 heavily modded by GNSC) and sold it after comparison with his Bolder modded SB & PS (using internal DAC), that says more to me about the performance of a well modded SB/PS than any scope measurements or theoretical assumptions as to how one will sound based on the stock parts inside. In this light, yes it is a lot to spend on mods to something that started out at $300 but is cheap when compared to some of the gear that it outperforms ... and that is without even considering the ease of use side of things. Other ACers have also returned Transporters after comparison to their SB.

[art]

I'd love to see some of the scope plots of the difference between the stock switcher and even the stock Elpac.  Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure what Art did in the internal SB power supply is a significant step up in performance. 
Bryan

I didn't touch the internal switcher!!! Just the output circuitry.

That is why this is called the "SB3/SPDIF output" thread. Gee, don't you guys pay attention?

Anyway, The Dude abides.

Pat

[bpape]

Didn't say you did Art  Don't ya pay attention 

I was talking about the EXTERNAL power supply which is what others were discussing in this thead. 

Bryan

[AliG]

In no disrespect to your opinion, there are people who believe that for the price of modded SB2/3 done by Bolders Cable Company, there's no better sound out there. aa

Of course, there are people who believe that the stock transporter can beat some $16k EMM Lab DAC 

Then there are people who claim that a $10k speaker can sound better than a $40k speaker, or a $40k speaker can sound better than a $250k speaker. A $2k preamp is the best preamp in the world, a $7k amp is the best amp in the world, a $20k cable is worth the investment, and blah blah blah..

In today's world of high-end audio, all reviews/opinions that you can find on magazine/online forums have lost their credibility unless your ears agrees with that specific review/opinion.

You know what, I think we should ban the word "BETTER", and just describe the sonic differences between the equipments we are comparing.

Remember J. Gordon's answer to a question:   
Do you still feel the high-end audio industry has lost its way in the manner you described 15 years ago?

Not in the same manner; there's no hope now. Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.

Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.

I recently heard the Transporter in my system also, and for this price, I can't imagine better DAC performance than this.

[F-100]

Some people have the mentality that the more money they spent on this hobby, the better system they have.

[tanchiro58]

Some people have the mentality that the more money they spent on this hobby, the better system they have.

That is totally agreed. I have listened to a 50K very high-end system at my friend's house. That system ain't sound good to me at all??? 

[bpape]

Agreed.  Some of the most musical and enjoyable systems I've heard were not ridiculously high dollar ones. 

However, just because a product is 'high priced' (a relative determination) doesn't mean it can't be good.  Many people automatically dismiss a product because it is expensive and just write it off as overpriced. 

IMO, pricing vs value is another relative determination. 

Bryan

[jhm731]

Naive question: Why not instead invest all that money into buying a Transporter?

The Transporter still uses a SMPS for the digital circuits.

PS- Used as a transport, my SB3 with Pat's upgrades, cable and my DIY linear PSU sounds great. I'm not losing any sleep wondering how much better Bolders' or Steve Nugent's mods are.

[tanchiro58]

However, just because a product is 'high priced' (a relative determination) doesn't mean it can't be good.  Many people automatically dismiss a product because it is expensive and just write it off as overpriced.

IMO, pricing vs value is another relative determination. 

Bryan,

I did compare the previous top of the line CJ preamp which had separate PS (I also own CJ17LS and 16LS before) with a DIY preamp and I prefer the sound of a DIY preamp. I have also owned the Cary 211 SET monoblocs ($15K retail at that time) and sold them after 6 months when I listened to a modded Sun Audio SET 2A3 (cost $2K) which I still keep until now.

Tan

[bpape]

I wasn't referring specifically to you - more of just a generality.  There are lots of examples of it working both ways out there I'm quite sure.  I just hate to see products automatically get slammed due to price.  I'm glad you found things that you prefer in your system for less money.  Others may or may not have the same preference given the same equipment depending on their room, their listening habits, etc.

Bryan

[bhobba]

Then there are people who claim that a $10k speaker can sound better than a $40k speaker, or a $40k speaker can sound better than a $250k speaker. A $2k preamp is the best preamp in the world, a $7k amp is the best amp in the world, a $20k cable is worth the investment, and blah blah blah..

Price/performance is a huge can of worms - no doubt about it.

n today's world of high-end audio, all reviews/opinions that you can find on magazine/online forums have lost their credibility unless your ears agrees with that specific review/opinion.

Hmmmm.  It is standard wisdom to ignore price and let your ears decide.  Personally, I believe unless some if that listening is done blind, I an very wary.  Fooling people is the easiest thing in the world to do.  Also going down to you local store and listening is becoming an increasingly costly way of purchasing.  Without taking this thread off track I just want to mention I personally don't hold to standard wisdom - I look at the designer.  A well chosen designer who you can trust should have done the work for you.  If the equipment is designed for accuracy it will always sound good, and never 'wear' on you as some form of intially good sounding distortion (eg ported bass) can do.

Thanks
Bill

[tanchiro58]

I wasn't referring specifically to you - more of just a generality.  There are lots of examples of it working both ways out there I'm quite sure.  I just hate to see products automatically get slammed due to price.  I'm glad you found things that you prefer in your system for less money.  Others may or may not have the same preference given the same equipment depending on their room, their listening habits, etc.

Bryan

Agreed. 

I look at the designer.  A well chosen designer who you can trust should have done the work for you.  If the equipment is designed for accuracy it will always sound good, and never 'wear' on you as some form of intially good sounding distortion (eg ported bass) can do.

Bill,

You are perfectly right. I have the same opinion since I got a close friend who owned and listened to most expensive and excellent system like AN Japan, Audiotekne, Avantgarde, Soundlabs, etc... Now he turns out to be a good preamplifier, amplifier and horn-based speakers designer who will demonstrate his pair of push-pull 211 monoblocs at CES show 2008.

[art]

Guys, it is not a matter of how much money is spent, but where it is spent.

I have no doubts that these fancy outboard supplies are better than the supplied wall wart. However, that will not affect the jitter that is generated by the poor supply that feeds the clock and SPDIF output chip. And that is what will really make a difference.

If the guys that make these outboard supplies were as clever as they like to imagine that they are, they would find a way to make one that provides for a clean supply dedicated to that part of the SB2/3. But, that would involve modifying the guts of one. Not as easy as making some over-priced accessory that anyone can plug into the power connector.

Yes, it would take some imagination. They can send me the royalties at any time for my inspiration.

Pat

[sunshinedawg]

To continue the car analogy, I may have tweaked the engine to add 50% performance but if I'm still feeding it 87 octane fuel, am I really getting what I've paid for?

Bryan

If you continue this thought further, people then listen in an equilateral setup, which is not conducive to how humans hear. Doesn't make sense while people discuss these mundane details, when they are implementing a system that breaks every law of psychoacoustics and is inherently wrong.

I'll be adding a bnc digital out jack tomorrow to my SB3 and a bnc in to my DCX2496. This way I'll be able to run bnc from the SB3 to the DCX.

[AliG]

If jitter is the only thing that "REALLY" make a difference... why is it so difficult to pick the best CD players.

I have no doubts that these fancy outboard supplies are better than the supplied wall wart. However, that will not affect the jitter that is generated by the poor supply that feeds the clock and SPDIF output chip. And that is what will really make a difference.