[St_PatGuy]

slow_down, sorry to hear you were not initially impressed with the sound.  Sometimes it takes a while for your ears and brain to adjust to the new sound.  Going from a bass heavy HT system to an accurate stereo set-up may feel underwhelming at first.  Don't worry, the balanced sound will grow on you.  "Flat" may be a good term in that no part of the music is jumping out at you.  Also, when going up the food chain in terms of speakers, bad recordings become more noticeable.  Many such recordings are flat and compressed and the speakers won't hide this fact.  Try out a few cds, sit back, and get acquainted with the new guys.  Some good speakers are sneaky like that--doing a lot of things well that don't call attention to themselves.

Also, the suggestions about placement are very important.  The best part is that it's a free tweak--just time consuming and sometimes frustrating.  Toe in, toe out, move the speakers farther apart, move your seat, place the speakers close to the wall, etc.--all sorts of things to try out.  Patience is the key.

Good luck and I hope the new system works out for you.

[bunky]

I think that you have a very nice little system. after the Khartago breaks in the bass will sound much better and the overall sound will open up and become smoother. i had a pair of the Khartago monos and i loved them.i know all about the Heat issue because i stacked them when i first got them and after about five minutes the bottom amp was hotter than a firecracker     Enjoy....WCW III

[slow_down]

Quick question about break-in -- can it really improve the bottom end and give you better bass?  And also, I found this post very reassuring.  Thanks.

slow_down, sorry to hear you were not initially impressed with the sound.  Sometimes it takes a while for your ears and brain to adjust to the new sound.  Going from a bass heavy HT system to an accurate stereo set-up may feel underwhelming at first.  Don't worry, the balanced sound will grow on you.  "Flat" may be a good term in that no part of the music is jumping out at you.  Also, when going up the food chain in terms of speakers, bad recordings become more noticeable.  Many such recordings are flat and compressed and the speakers won't hide this fact.  Try out a few cds, sit back, and get acquainted with the new guys.  Some good speakers are sneaky like that--doing a lot of things well that don't call attention to themselves.

Also, the suggestions about placement are very important.  The best part is that it's a free tweak--just time consuming and sometimes frustrating.  Toe in, toe out, move the speakers farther apart, move your seat, place the speakers close to the wall, etc.--all sorts of things to try out.  Patience is the key.

Good luck and I hope the new system works out for you.

Well the nice thing about having the majority of my cd collection already ripped to my computer and instantly playable on my SB3 is that I've been able to go through like a million different recordings, old and new.  Some sound pretty great, others not so much.  I'm still trying to figure out the rhyme and reason behind it.  My biggest problem is that many of my recordings simply sound as if I took the imaginary bass treble knobs and set them both at 1/4 power.  It feels like someone took the dynamic range and scrunched it down to something way smaller.  I don't get that live, crackling vibe that my home theater setup gives me.

Definitely part of this is that the Odyssey gear is likely way more accurate - I liken it to how sometimes a song on the radio can sound more "lively" than the same song on a cd due to the way that they amp everything up for FM radio, getting rid of highs and lows and making it all highs.  And I'm sure break-in will open it up too.  I just wish it sounded great now, because I guarantee you, my wallet's already broken in plenty.

I will keep an open mind though and wait for the Khartago to break in, and experiment with speaker placement, and maybe even buy a rug.  But still, anticlimactic day!


 

[slow_down]

Give the Khartago time to break in.  When I first turned on my upgraded Khartago/Etesian system, I thought I had made a huge mistake.  After break-in, I know I did not.  It's really sweet.  Be patient.  I also use a modded SB3 which I love even though I'm having trouble ripping to FLAC and EAC since I got a new Vista system.  Wish I could find some nice 'gales.

I just ripped most of my collection to FLAC using EAC on a Vista laptop, and I think it went fine.  What problems are you having?

[pm314]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, definitely have some things to try to improve the sound.  In response to some of your suggestions and questions:

-I've since moved the Tempest off the Khartago which was starting to get kinda hot.

-Break-in should help the Khartago, which I literally unpacked about an hour and a half before I posted!  I would have waited until tonight, but the buzzing sound scared me and I wanted to ask for help sooner.

-Unfortunately the SB3 is my best source right now.  The only other possibility is my DVD player (Oppo 981 - doubt its DAC or power supply is any better than my SB3 and its modded PS).  At some point in time I will invest in a transport/DAC or mid-budget player just to have that option, but for now it's the SB3.

-Room treatments will be tough for aesthetic and practical reasons.  I've got a big old chair that I move around a fair bit depending on whether I have company or am watching a movie, so a big thick rug will make that harder to deal with.  And the idea of putting up curtains in front of my treetop views doesn't exactly put a smile on my face.   Still, I would suspect my room's acoustical properties are probably the biggest factor in why the speakers sounded a little flat and weak to me.  So I will have to take some steps to address the problem.  Maybe treatments that I can put in and take out easily depending on if I have people over?


And Avalon, I live in Chicago!

I remember having the same feeling when I first hooked up my Khartago. I would say within 2 days the feeling was completely gone as the system opened up.  I dont think you will be dissapointed in your system.   I now have a SB3 (with unmodded Elpac), Etesian pre, upgraded mono Khartagos and Vandersteen 1Cs (which I've *heard* are comparable to Nightingales). 

So anyway, to finish my post (it was dinner time) one thing that you may not be used to is the tubed pre-amp. Once the system is broken in and if you still do not feel good about the sound you could try running the SB3 directly into the Khartago. Of course only do this if you are quite certain volume control is turned on on the SB3 and that it is allllll the way down. Wouldnt want to blow those new Nightingales.

[bunky]

The Tempest is a solid state preamplifier   i have owned five SS pre's and the Tempest was my favorite.in fact i still own it because i dont want to part with it....WCW III

[slow_down]

Well this is kind of awkward, but for the past twenty minutes I've been listening to the SB3 plugged directly into the Khartago (made sure to set SB3's volume to zero first and then inch my way up), and I'm not sure I can discern much if any difference between this and when I have the Tempest in between them.  A teeny part of my brain thinks it may just possibly sound the slightest bit better without the Tempest.   Am I crazy?  I've heard a lot of talk that the analog-modded SB3 does very well plugged straight into an amplifier, but mine is stock.

What differences would you guys think I should hear between using the Tempest and going direct?  I'm now beginning to wonder if I should have skipped the preamplifier and just gotten an A/B switch.

OK I'm overthinking this.  That's enough thought about this for one day, as I can obsess over it tomorrow and during the weekend and even beyond   Thanks for all the helpful replies everyone.

[TjMV3]

You definitely need to do something about your placement of the Nightingales. 

First off,  that room with all those windows is going to be a pain in the neck to get the best out of those Nightingales. 

You need some big,  thick curtains on every window.  and if that were me and that room was the only room I could put my equipment;  I would definitely put up slotted Bamboo window blinds in every window,  then the thick curtains over them.  Again,  the bamboo blinds with the roughly one inch slotted blinds,  not the matchstick blinds.

Second,   you need a few nice wool area rugs.  Depending on the size of that room,  you can cover most of that room with two or three 8' x 10" or  smaller sized area rugs.

Three and just as important........  The Nightingales have no business whatsoever being placed so far out from the back wall.  They shouldn't be no more than 12"-15" inches off the back wall.  And they really sound their best and really open up when they are 8 - 9 feet apart from each other.  I've had my Nightingales for over two years and that has been the ideal placement to get the best out them;  in every room I have tried.

I learned the further out from the back wall you place them,  the leaner the bass gets,  the less punchy the bass dynamics are and the imaging suffers badly if they are not spread apart correctly.

I don't know how wide that room is,  but I'm guessing placing the Nightingales only 10-12 inches from the sidewall will help, also.  In wider rooms they sound their best 18"-23" from the side wall.

If it were me,  I would move that table and those chairs to the other end of the room and give the Nightingales all the room they need. 

The curtains and blinds would also block out the sun/UV rays from getting to the drivers on the Nightingales.  UV rays over an extended period of time will dry out your drivers and the rubber surrounds on the drivers.   It will also dry out the finish of the wood. 

Clean them with something like Pledge Multi-Surface cleaner (no amonia or harsh chemicals.....it's made for cleaning matte/silk finishes and lacquer or clear finishes on furniture (don't get any on the drivers or rubber surround);  dry off.  Then follow that up with Pledge's Extra-Moisterizing formula (with Lemon Oil and don't get any on the drivers or rubber surround) and let that dry over a day or two.  You'll be shocked at how gorgeous the finish looks!  It's beautiful!

At their best,  with proper placement,   good power amp and a good pre amp;  the Nightingales will be plenty punchy,  dynamic,  smooth and their imaging is 3D.  You'll think there's someone playing little instruments all around you,  while the main soundstage is directly in front of you.  And make no mistake,  they kick out some real nice bass,  for their size.  You'll be surprised how low they go and how the bass guitars just pump out at you. 

[pm314]

The Tempest is a solid state preamplifier  i have owned five SS pre's and the Tempest was my favorite.in fact i still own it because i dont want to part with it....WCW III

oh sorry  , I read Tempest but for some reason was convinced it was a Candella (I guess no tubes shouldve been my first clue).  At any rate I guess the same direct experiment applies which it sounds like he has tried. I would keep my pre direct into my amps if it wasnt for the (slight) risk of the volume going out of whack on the SB3. Of course mine is Etesian and yours is Tempest so you should probably hear a bigger difference.  I still think its a matter of time. I will be interested to hear how its going.

[mjohnson]

Give the Khartago time to break in.  When I first turned on my upgraded Khartago/Etesian system, I thought I had made a huge mistake.  After break-in, I know I did not.  It's really sweet.  Be patient.  I also use a modded SB3 which I love even though I'm having trouble ripping to FLAC and EAC since I got a new Vista system.  Wish I could find some nice 'gales.

I just ripped most of my collection to FLAC using EAC on a Vista laptop, and I think it went fine.  What problems are you having?

Slow Down,  I just pm'd you on my problem.  I would appreciate any help.

[slow_down]

-mjohnson, sent you back a pm that should help.

Whoah, lots of good and substantive advice!  Thanks.  Gives me a lot to think about.

I got bored and made a floorplan of my living room using Google Sketchup.  The dimensions and scale are pretty accurate (including the furniture).  The only things missing are the two small chairs from the sunroom area (behind the speakers in my first picture in this thread) and three small coffee and end tables I was too lazy to put in.


The picture size is kinda scrunched.  You can find a bigger version of it here:

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc41/slow_down_more/mylivingroom.jpg


Eventually I may be able to move my TV to a different room which will open up all sorts of possibilities, but as it stands now, the only viable options are in the sunroom area as shown in the first picture in this topic, and possibly on either side of the entertainment center.  The latter option poses lots of problems though - the stereo is too wide to fit in my ent. center and there's not a ton of usable floorspace.  I like the sunroom area because for personal listening I can easily rotate my club chair into a great listening position.  So, any thoughts on this?  At the very least it shows the challenges I face in getting good placement for the speakers.

[sts9fan]

I was running a SB3 straight into a khartago for a while and it was great.  I liked it alot.  I really don't think you need the pre.  I ended up getting rid of the amp because I wanted to play with a tubed pre and the khartago has TONS of gain which inmho made a noisy combo with tubes.  Also becuae of all the gain it has ~32db you really don't need a pre if you are not switching sources.

You are not planning on keeping that cheater plug in are you?

[slow_down]

I was running a SB3 straight into a khartago for a while and it was great.  I liked it alot.  I really don't think you need the pre.  I ended up getting rid of the amp because I wanted to play with a tubed pre and the khartago has TONS of gain which inmho made a noisy combo with tubes.  Also becuae of all the gain it has ~32db you really don't need a pre if you are not switching sources.

You are not planning on keeping that cheater plug in are you?

Well I have some wiggle room with Klaus on keeping the Tempest (and the entire system, I suppose).  I'll have to think about whether I need what the Tempest has to offer (ostensibly a positive effect on sound, switching, phono stage, good looks )

As far as the cheater plug, what else can I do?  One thing I haven't tried yet is seeing whether I get buzz just using the Khartago without the Tempest.  That should answer some questions I guess.  But assuming the buzz remains, what options do I have but to keep the cheater plug?  Try to get it fixed I presume?

[jdodmead]

Here is a link to a thread on Audiogon that is discussing a hum issue and some tings t try.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1189618797&openfrom&1&4#1

[slow_down]

Strangely enough, the ground loop problem (or whatever it was) has disappeared - I took out both cheater plugs today and there's no buzz.  Who knows what happened there...

I'm thinking about getting a sub already, but my Tempest has no provision for one - only one set of outs.  Could I get a sub such as a the HSU Research STF-2 and plug that in between my amplifier and the speakers?  What's the practical difference between that and using a 2nd out on your preamp?  Would i be much better off getting the 2nd out, and how does that work exactly?  I'm still gonna give my Nightingales a lot more listening before I do anything rash like buy a sub, but am curious.

Also, I'm beginning to wonder about my source material.  Some songs just sound flat out wonderful.  The bass feels rich and warm enough even though still a touch on the lean side.  Almost like the sound of the instrument is more accurately and precisely reproduced but slightly less "round" as a result.  This has mildly transformed the feel of certain songs, I think for the better.  On these recordings I also feel like I'm picking up a little more detail.  Soft percussion comes alive with much more distinctive presence even in the background, and even the sound of a guitar string getting plucked sounds different - like I'm hearing more of the pluck, the beginning middle and end if that makes sense.  When I hear recordings like this it makes me feel like a very happy customer!

So that's what it sounds like when it sounds good.  The problem is, a fair amount of stuff just doesn't sound like that.  Much of what I listen to sounds like the instruments are way too close together and the overall feel is that of too much stuff going on in too little space.  One rock and roll song I like has a fair amount of stuff going on at the end, with two guitars going at it together.  Listening to this song on my Ipod with Ultimate Ears Super.fi 5 pro's (above-average in ear phones) I still felt like I could hear precisely every note of each guitar, and more importantly, the space between them despite all the other musical activity going on in the song.  On my Odyssey setup, that distance feels like it's been shrunk, and moreover everything in the song sounds more brash and overly-bright than my Ipod experience.  Plus the bass doesn't feel rich enough, unless I pump up the volume, which pumps up the brashness as well.  Lots of songs feel this way -almost like you forgot to plug the headphone connector in all the way to your walkman and are turning up the volume to compensate.

So what's going on here?  I ripped all my CD's to FLAC using EAC in the exact same manner, and have no connection problems that I'm aware of.  Could there really be such a wide range in the quality of the recordings themselves?  Could my SB3 be the problem?  Could a certain speaker placement and room acoustics make one song sound amazing and the next terrible?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[St_PatGuy]

slow_down, I've never heard the Nightingales, but I do own the Epiphonies and I imagine they are somewhat similar.  With that in mind, when I first got them they seemed a tad light in the bass area.  To be fair, they are bookshelf speakers, and can only do so much.  The more I listened to them, the less the frequency limitations mattered.  Yes, some songs sounded different, but what the Epiphonies lacked in "oomph" they made up for with clean and detailed bass.  I tried subs with them, but didn't like the integration.  The longer I listened without the subs, the less I missed them and just enjoyed the speakers by themselves.

Sometimes it's hard to unlearn a sound.  If you own one set of speakers for many years and continuously listen to a certain song all the time, that particular sound gets mapped to your ears.  You get used to the way the music is presented.  Along comes a new pair of speakers and your ears and brain say, "What?  This isn't the song I'm used to!"  It can be a bit awkward and frustrating.

I'm no expert, and I can't tell you if the Nightingales are the right speaker for you, but I've experienced the same underwhelming feeling your going through.  My first set of speakers were some Klipsch KLF 20s, which were big, fun music makers.  I think they had two 10" woofers that pounded out the sound.  Problem was was that speakers I listened to after them seemed to miss that epic dynamic presentation.  I remained patient and tried to evaluate speakers on their own terms and learned to enjoy the little nuances hidden within. 

With the Epiphonies toed-in too far, I'd get a blob of sound in front of me and it was hard to separate the instruments.  A slight toe-in yielded a much better soundstage.  Even moving the speakers an inch farther apart had a huge effect on the sweet spot for me.  Sometimes subtle changes can have a big impact.

Don't give up on those guys yet--give 'em time.

[slow_down]

slow_down, I've never heard the Nightingales, but I do own the Epiphonies and I imagine they are somewhat similar.  With that in mind, when I first got them they seemed a tad light in the bass area.  To be fair, they are bookshelf speakers, and can only do so much.  The more I listened to them, the less the frequency limitations mattered.  Yes, some songs sounded different, but what the Epiphonies lacked in "oomph" they made up for with clean and detailed bass.  I tried subs with them, but didn't like the integration.  The longer I listened without the subs, the less I missed them and just enjoyed the speakers by themselves.

Sometimes it's hard to unlearn a sound.  If you own one set of speakers for many years and continuously listen to a certain song all the time, that particular sound gets mapped to your ears.  You get used to the way the music is presented.  Along comes a new pair of speakers and your ears and brain say, "What?  This isn't the song I'm used to!"  It can be a bit awkward and frustrating.

I'm no expert, and I can't tell you if the Nightingales are the right speaker for you, but I've experienced the same underwhelming feeling your going through.  My first set of speakers were some Klipsch KLF 20s, which were big, fun music makers.  I think they had two 10" woofers that pounded out the sound.  Problem was was that speakers I listened to after them seemed to miss that epic dynamic presentation.  I remained patient and tried to evaluate speakers on their own terms and learned to enjoy the little nuances hidden within. 

With the Epiphonies toed-in too far, I'd get a blob of sound in front of me and it was hard to separate the instruments.  A slight toe-in yielded a much better soundstage.  Even moving the speakers an inch farther apart had a huge effect on the sweet spot for me.  Sometimes subtle changes can have a big impact.

Don't give up on those guys yet--give 'em time.

I'll definitely give them a fair shake and plenty of listening time.  Your comments about "unlearning" a sound make a lot of sense, and I've only had this system since Wednesday.

Damn electrical buzz came back though, and I had to put the cheater plugs back in.  Oh well.

[Bigfish]

Slow-down

Congratulations on your very nice looking system!

I am wondering if you have tried listening to the system with the Oppo Dvd Player as a source?  Prior to sending my S3 to Bolder for the analog mods I did not feel the music it produced was nowhere near the quality produced by my Nad C542 CDP.  Most people seem to use the S3 digital out to a DAC if they don't have the analog section of the unit modded.

I look forward to your comments after you try the DVD Player as a source.

Ken

[jose]

slow_down,

You have a very fine system there. Congratulations. It has always puzzled me how Klaus manages to deliver so much to the customer, not only in terms of hardware, but in terms of service.

You will get used to noticing how your system sounds better than your friends' mega-dollar showpieces. As an Odyssey Audio fan (and a lifelong audiophile and classically trained musician), I have owned several all-Odyssey systems in different configurations. The configuration that you have, the Etesian-Khartago-Nightingale chain, delivers more per dollar of than any other I have heard.  If some time in the future, you get upgrade itch (although one would have to be to be truly obsessed to want more, really), I would suggest that you upgrade the amplifier and/or the pre, but keep the speakers.

St_Pat Guy, I haven't yet heard the Epiphony II, but I am quite familiar with the Epiphony I, the Nightingales, and the Loreleis. As much as I like the Epiphonies (I own two pairs, and I am not parting with them any time soon) the Nightingales are many notches above.

Jose

[Wayne1]

slow_down,

I just took a look at the picture of your room. I noticed you have two of your three components plugged into one wall outlet and the third plugged into a different output. I think that is where your ground loop is coming from.

If possible, try to use a power bar or a multi tap AC outlet. You want all of your AC grounds to be connected at the same physical place.