[hmen]

A good system could end up costing you your marriage 

[Bigfish]

A good system could end up costing you your marriage 

Not for what the system costs but for the amount of time you want to spend with it instead of with her. aa

[JLM]

The best answer to this question would be more questions:

What do you think would be a good system?  (Features, list of sources, type of music, description of room, neighbors/spl, look sonic attributes desired)  This is as much of a personal question for the newbie as it is for the audiophile.

The newbie probably also needs some education.  First they need to learn the vocabulary.  Realize that most non-audiophiles don't know what imaging is, what frequency range they're after, how loud they want ever want to listen to, or can even tell what instruments they're listening to.  Attending concerts and reading "Jazz for Dummies" etc. are good ways to learn something about the music.

There is a lot to learn/know before you can make an intelligent purchase.  This "boot camp, basic training" process will weed out the casual listeners from the future audiophiles.

There is no pat answers.  Having a "good" system doesn't make you anymore of an audiophile than owning a sand wedge makes you a golfer.  You can't buy your way into the club (but it might help).  Hopefully we make it as easy as possible.

[KCI-JohnP]

You can build a really nice system to give you a great taste of what "high end audio" is all about in the range of $1500 or so. Magnepan MMG's paired up with a decent little amp and a decent cdp will shock you! Just my two pennies worth....

Good luck,
John

[Tweaker]

You can build a really nice system to give you a great taste of what "high end audio" is all about in the range of $1500 or so. Magnepan MMG's paired up with a decent little amp and a decent cdp will shock you! Just my two pennies worth....

Good luck,
John

  Excellent advice! I'm in awe of those speakers. I used to have a pair of SMGa's and they were my introduction to the "high end".

[acresm22]

The best answer to this question would be more questions:

What do you think would be a good system?  (Features, list of sources, type of music, description of room, neighbors/spl, look sonic attributes desired)  This is as much of a personal question for the newbie as it is for the audiophile.

The newbie probably also needs some education.  First they need to learn the vocabulary.  Realize that most non-audiophiles don't know what imaging is, what frequency range they're after, how loud they want ever want to listen to, or can even tell what instruments they're listening to.  Attending concerts and reading "Jazz for Dummies" etc. are good ways to learn something about the music.

There is a lot to learn/know before you can make an intelligent purchase.  This "boot camp, basic training" process will weed out the casual listeners from the future audiophiles.

There is no pat answers.  Having a "good" system doesn't make you anymore of an audiophile than owning a sand wedge makes you a golfer.  You can't buy your way into the club (but it might help).  Hopefully we make it as easy as possible.

Ugh, I think this would send them running and screaming. It's the "vocabulary" of high-end audio that's bothersome to me. If they already want to buy a music system, presumably to listen to the music they enjoy listening to, I don't think you should try to educate them about music.

[Bigfish]

The newbie probably also needs some education.  First they need to learn the vocabulary.  Realize that most non-audiophiles don't know what imaging is, what frequency range they're after, how loud they want ever want to listen to, or can even tell what instruments they're listening to.  Attending concerts and reading "Jazz for Dummies" etc. are good ways to learn something about the music.

There is a lot to learn/know before you can make an intelligent purchase.  This "boot camp, basic training" process will weed out the casual listeners from the future audiophiles.

Ugh, I think this would send them running and screaming. It's the "vocabulary" of high-end audio that's bothersome to me. If they already want to buy a music system, presumably to listen to the music they enjoy listening to, I don't think you should try to educate them about music.
[/quote]

I agree!

I pursued a 2 channel music system because I hated the sound of CDs when played on my HT System.  The kind of questions JLM is advocating are becoming more important to me now that I have a system.  There is one thing I have learned about this hobby.  "Don't care what other people think of the sound from your system if you like it."

Ken

[JLM]

Most musicians I know don't need much of a stereo.  They know what each instrument (and the whole band/orchestra) sounds like.  They only need a small hint of what the music should sound like.  (Like playing chess without a chess set or board.)  A local conductor used speakers with blown tweeters for years without realizing, not because he couldn't hear but because he didn't need them.  BTW most musicians can't afford a "good" audio system.    

In fact an overly detailed system can "get in the way" of an experienced listener as the mind has to disregard what doesn't sound as expected.  This is the essence of listener fatigue and is more true of the experienced/educated ear.

All the questions and education is a bother if you're interested in making audio a hobby.  Without interest you're just a guy with a nice system.  As I said above, owning a sand wedge doesn't make you a golfer.

[mcullinan]

(pinky by corner of mouth) One meelion dollars!
mike

[Daygloworange]

All the questions and education is a bother if you're interested in making audio a hobby. 

I think that if you want to make a really informed decision though, you kinda have to educated yourself. Otherwise you could be just shooting in the dark.

Given a budget of say 3k, you could build a respectable system, but with a little more insight, you could build quite a stellar system.

Knowledge is power, and often, it's free. 

Cheers

[Bigfish]

Most musicians I know don't need much of a stereo.  They know what each instrument (and the whole band/orchestra) sounds like.  They only need a small hint of what the music should sound like.  (Like playing chess without a chess set or board.)  A local conductor used speakers with blown tweeters for years without realizing, not because he couldn't hear but because he didn't need them.  BTW most musicians can't afford a "good" audio system.    

In fact an overly detailed system can "get in the way" of an experienced listener as the mind has to disregard what doesn't sound as expected.  This is the essence of listener fatigue and is more true of the experienced/educated ear.

All the questions and education is a bother if you're interested in making audio a hobby.  Without interest you're just a guy with a nice system.  As I said above, owning a sand wedge doesn't make you a golfer.

Like everyone else on this board you are entitled to your opinion!  I don't think you have to be a musician to appreciate music.  In fact if there were only musicians then they would have a hard time making a living!  

I am learning the teminology but it does not impact my hearing one bit!

Ken

[lonewolfny42]

Lots of great posts ....thanks !

Ken....thanks for the kind words....

[TONEPUB]

I think the question is very relative...

It depends on your budget, your room and how much software you have just to start out.

Then it will depend on how obsessed you become.  You can get in the game for a thousand
bucks or two, but you could spend a hundred times that if you wanted to.

See how hard the bug bites and good luck!

[JLM]

Ken,

Didn't mean to infer that you must be a musician to appreciate music.  But most folks rarely listen to unamplified live performances beyond sporting events, so they're left with no basis to know what a flute or a banjo or whatever really sound like.  Which is why most audio equipment (IMO) sounds like really nice artificially reproduced music versus real, live music.

Back in college we had a world class guitarist offer to perform (totally out of the blue).  Wow could he play!!!!  Afterwards he wanted to speak to some of us engineering students because he couldn't imagine how we could appreciate music, art, etc.   

Without the right words, how do you communicate what you're hearing?  (At the restaurant I just point to the menu and grunt.   ).

[Bigfish]

Ken,

Didn't mean to infer that you must be a musician to appreciate music.  But most folks rarely listen to unamplified live performances beyond sporting events, so they're left with no basis to know what a flute or a banjo or whatever really sound like.  Which is why most audio equipment (IMO) sounds like really nice artificially reproduced music versus real, live music.

Back in college we had a world class guitarist offer to perform (totally out of the blue).  Wow could he play!!!!  Afterwards he wanted to speak to some of us engineering students because he couldn't imagine how we could appreciate music, art, etc.   

Without the right words, how do you communicate what you're hearing?  (At the restaurant I just point to the menu and grunt.   ).

JLM:

I have had a few beers watching football (with the sound turned off as I don't need the announcers to tell me what just happened) and have been listening to my system all day!  I certainly don't want to come across as a wise A-- and if I have I apologize!

My initial plunge into a better sound system occurred in 1978 when I lived in Michigan.  I purchased a Yahama CR2040 receiver, ADS 810 Speakers and an Onkyo Turntable.  I still own that system today and it actually sounds pretty decent (I have it in our fishing cottage on the Eastern Shore).  As I grew older I played less and less music and then a few years ago I jumped into the world of HT.  Like most (I guess) I purchased an HT receiver and dvd player from a big box store (Best Buy).  I used the ADS Speakers for mains for awhile and then purchased Monitor Audio Speakers for Mains and Center Positions.  One day I decided to play some music on the system.  I guess you would call it music but it was really bad and I able to listen for only a few minutes.  I began spending hours every night on the various circles on the internet and started to gain an understanding for HT versus 2 channel systems.  Then I accidentally discovered AC and found members here to be extremely helpful and not put off by the fact I did not know a darn thing about 2 channel systems. 

JLM, I might have this all wrong but I put together a system and Istart hearing things I have never heard before.  I now want to hear those things defined even better and more "live like" so I am "tweeking" the system.  I have the impression that is what this hobby or pursuit of better sound is all about.

I know I have digressed away from Chris's question.  Maybe the right answer to the original question is:  if you take your time and do your homework you can compile a high quality system tailored for your sound interests and budget. 

Ken

[JLM]

Ken,

Wanting to hear more and more fidelity of the original performance is perhaps the best definition I've heard of what it means to be an audiophile.  Congrats.

[acresm22]

Without the right words, how do you communicate what you're hearing?  (At the restaurant I just point to the menu and grunt.   ).

JLM,

I totally appreciate what you're saying, but I guess I have an aversion to audio-speak. And it comes from experience. I think if you spend time telling a newbie about "sound-staging" and "transient response" and all the other flim-flam, you risk setting them up for disappointment. They'll be sitting there listening for all that crap instead of enjoying the music, and when they can't precisely pinpoint those audiophile characteristics they so desperately crave, they'll be frustrated and find that listening to music on the hi-fi just isn't much fun anymore. And then they'll start cycling through equipment...

I bought my first system in 1977...a Sansui AU317 integrated amp, a Toshiba SR250 turntable and JLB L36 Decade speakers. I loved that system and listened to it happily for nearly 20 years. Then I went to someone's house for dinner and was introduced to the high-end....Krell mono amps and a Wadia digital source driving Wilson Watt Puppy speakers via Transparent Ultra (or something) cable. Wow...sounded mighty nice as we sat there listening to him wax rapsodic about soundstage depth and transient response and bass traps and double-sheetrocked walls, etc. And that was the moment I lost my way...I then spent the next several years futily chasing those high-end characterstics through numerous equipment upgrades. I have always stayed keenly insterested in audio, but that period was more frustrating than rewarding.

It wasn't until 2002 when I visited George Wright at his home in Kent, Wash., that I had an epiphany. George played me his little WPA3.5 SET amps driving some brown, 70s-era bookshelf speakers with a Technics cd player that looked like it came from JC Penny. And all of this was piled on rickety entertainment center with a bunch of other speakers stacked here and there and a TV smack in the middle (I guess no one told George that entertaiment centers and TVs destroy the soundstage). And I was transfixed by what I heard....had virtually nothing to do with audiophile jargon and everything to do with music.

Long story, I know...but if someone is looking for advice on buying a nice sounding system, I'm convinced that sending them on the typical quest for those mythical (there, I said it!) sonic characteristics that define the high-end is a waste of time.

IMHO of course ; - )

[Duke]

Great topic, LoneWolf!

Here's the dollar amount I'd focus on for the person new to audio:

One thousand and seventy-nine dollars.  That's right: $1,079.

Where does that number come from?  Well, the person who is "new to Audio" has no doubt heard of Bose many many times, and their top-of-the-line all-in-one system is the Acoustimass II.  Guess how much it retails for, and it is only sold at full retail.

Our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to show the newcomer how much better he can do with a component stereo system costing $1,079 or less.  (Actually this is a piece of cake - Bose has set the bar very, very low).

I think any one of us could spend all day putting together various systems for less than $1,079 that would sound worlds better than the Acousimass II.   But, that is our competition!  That is what most of the country thinks of when they think of a "good sound system".   Nearly everyone I get into a conversation about audio with who isn't already an audiophile mentions one brand, and one brand only.  People buy Bose simply because they have heard of it over and over again.

If given half a chance, we can do so very much better.  And for every person won over to high-end audio, you're helping dealers like me put their kids through college. 

Cheers,

Duke

[lonewolfny42]

Good post Duke...
You are right on target about Bose....the name everyone knows and trusts...
Thanks.....

                  Chris

[NealH]

Today, if I was starting out I would head over to my nearest Magnepan dealer and buy the MMG or, MG12 if a pair could be found on sale and, a NAD 320 or, 325 integrated amplifier.  Then I'd buy the new Oppo 980H player.   Should total up very near the $1100 point Duke established.  Maybe even under it. 

Life at the bottom has never been so good.   Lots of choices with good value out there.