[Double Ugly]

Guys,

 For the rest of you, look around and see if you can find any other speaker this size with an X-O that low.   Or any other 2-way of any size for that matter - besides ours. 
-Bob

The only thing that is close is the Rubies from Mark and Daniel @ 900 hz.   Not sure how that compares to the Mini  aa

Based on what I've heard and read, not too well considering the dips and peaks in the response curve, and the supposedly crappy crossover parts folks are replacing. 

Regardless of which speaker folks prefer, I can say with utmost confidence the aforementioned 'issues' will not be present in the TP Mini.  I'm not normally a betting man, but on this I'm willing to entertain offers.

Any takers?  aa

[ooheadsoo]

I won't take that bet, but I hear they're aggressively working on the problem.

[Double Ugly]

I won't take that bet, but I hear they're aggressively working on the problem.

Are they working on the 82.5dB/3-6 Ohm rating, too? 

Again, some may prefer the sound of the Rubies, but the Minis (1) cost less, (2) go deeper, (3) have a flatter response curve, (4) employ Mundorf crossover parts, and (5) are easier to drive.

And wasn't there something about a pair of Rubies almost frying an amp? 

I haven't heard either, and I admit to being very intrigued with the Mark & Daniel offerings in the beginning.  Now?  Ehhhh... not so much.

The Minis seem like a no-brainer starting point if someone is looking for small, attractive speakers.  The only real downside I can think of is the fact that they're ported, and some small speaker applications absolutely scream for a sealed design.  Hopefully Bob will begin working on such a beast when time allows.

[ooheadsoo]

Yeah, the recent revelations show a few glitches on the M&D side, and the sensitivity just plain sucks.  As for a sealed design, I've got one, although it sure isn't a mini   I'd stick with Bob's hybrids next time.

[Zero]

It is true; the bulk of Mark and Daniels current crop of loudspeakers are a bear to drive and require an amplifier with some muscle. Naturally, this alienates many excellent sounding mid powered valve and transistor components. One of their currently releases is the "Topaz", a compact two way monitor that uses a air motion tweeter that is crossed over at 900hz. The impedance is also a tad friendlier at 4-6 ohms. During my review (which can be seen here; http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2007-10s.pdf ), I found these 85.5 db speakers to respond well even on low powered amplifiers (ie: the Red Wine Audio Signature 30). In fact, they got pretty loud with plenty of dynamic headroom to spare. This isn't a plug for Mark and Daniel (although you could say its a partial plug to encourage those to check out the review!  ).

That said, I would love to get an ear on those Timepiece Mini's. I intended to do so at RMAF - but unfortunately plans fell through! One day...!   

[werner52]

Bob, May have been answered in another thread but what height speakers stands do you recommend for the minis?   Thanks

[Rocket]

Hi,

Pardon my ignorance but what difference does a lower xover make to the sound quality?  Not trying to be a smart a..  I just don't know what improvement it would bring.

Any comments are great appreciated.  Btw I'm still enjoying my s9 speakers.

Regards

Rod

[Double Ugly]

Bob can and will offer more, I'm sure, but here's what I was able to locate on their current site -

"Our waveguides should be considered as a hybrid union of technologies, bridging the gap between high efficiency and high linearity. Compression ratios are high enough to greatly extend the low frequency performance of the driver as well as ensure that its mechanical system remains within linear operational limits under all conditions and drive levels. At the same time, the decreasing compression ratio with increasing frequency characteristic guarantees avoidance of the non-linear regions of the air medium. Sort of the "best of both worlds" -- if you will." 

See here - http://www.4sptech.com/version2/waveguides.html

I will avoid the temptation to embarrass myself by trying to express what Bob's explained to me no less than half a dozen times. 

[lonewolfny42]

Jim....

I will avoid the temptation to embarrass myself by trying to express what Bob's explained to me no less than half a dozen times.   

Next time....write it down....  

Now Bob didn't say there would be a pair of Mini TP's making an appearance at RMAF....did he ?

[Zero]

Rocket,

Most traditional dome tweeters are limited in bandwidth, extending down to only 2khz or so. This means that a woofer must be used to take over the bulk of the duties below this point. This is a problem for two reasons. First - This common crossover point just so happens to reside in a frequency range most of us are very sensitive to. Getting two traditional drivers to integrate _seamlessly_ between one another is an incredibly difficult task. It can be all to easy to hear a speakers crossover point, especially when compared next to full range panels.

The second problem is that most of the times, a cone woofer is used to compliment a dome tweeter. Woofers were originally designed to belt out strong midrange and bass by moving air. While driver technology has improved tremendously over the years, having a woofer cover a wide range that extends from 2khz down on down to between 40-60hz, is a pretty tall order. This causes the driver to work harder than it should.

Using wide bandwidth high frequency drivers that can deliver solid performance down to the 900hz range and below not only creates a sound that is usually more coherent and seamless, but in the case of the Timepiece (which uses a traditional cone woofer); it lets the woofer focus on what it was designed to do in the first place -  move air, and cover the critical mid-range/bass octaves. You could say the result is usually a fairly "effortless" and more coherent presentation in contrast to more traditional two way speakers.

I hope this made sense  - as I am beyond tired! Off to bed!

[Double Ugly]

Now Bob didn't say there would be a pair of Mini TP's making an appearance at RMAF....did he ?

Not that I know of.

Zero -  Great explanation! 

I knew it had to do with avoiding the more sensitive crossover point, and with allowing the tweeter to cover more of the midrange vs. forcing the woofer to do it (tweeter does it better, plus you avoid the woofer's break-up modes), but I also knew there was much more to it.  Your explanation is far more detailed than I'd have attempted.

As for the crossover being seamless and the presentation being coherent... yeah, I can vouch for that. 

[phoenix_rising]

Yipee 800hz, majorly stoked, thanks Bob.

[Double Ugly]

Yipee 800hz, majorly stoked, thanks Bob.

Yeah, that caught me by surprise, too.  I think it was only a week or so ago that Bob told me he figured 1k was as low as he could safely go.

Well done, Bob! 

[Albireo]

 This isn't a plug for Mark and Daniel (although you could say its a partial plug to encourage those to check out the review!  ).

I auditioned both the Ruby and the Maximus (original versions) for quite some time and had very satisfactory experiences. However, I use NuForce amps and those are certainly not starved for power in my listening room (~3000 cubic ft). Whether due to XO differences or not, it seemed that the larger speaker was smoother in the treble and much more controlled in the bass, so perhaps the much larger Aragorn -- with both a larger enclosure and AMT treble unit -- is closer to reference quality. I won't deny that the Heil treble unit needs to be better-controlled, particularly in the Ruby unit I heard but also in the Maximus. The new Sapphire appears to be a very attractive step in the right direction.

In any event, it was actually my very happy experience with the Mark & Daniel speakers that started my love affair with low XO frequency speakers such as those by NuForce/SP Tech and Amphion, and other speakers also designed to move the XO freq away from the most sensitive range, such as those by Gallo and Zu Cable. So M&D speakers will always hold a special place in my heart and I will likely purchase a pair for myself in the future. In the meantime, I am expecting my upcoming Mini to reach a new pinnacle of sound reproduction. No pressure, Bob!

[bbchem]

  I actually have a pair of the Rubys that were a demo from Quest for Sound in Pennsylvania. These have become my reference speaker both Monitor and Floor Standing. I also purchased the Omni Harmonizers to add that zing which it does. If you have read several of my posts on AC, I have now had >30pair of loudspeakers in my quest for the holy Grail.  I also have a pair of Zu Druids as well. So far, these two are the best I have ever heard at least as my house as a reference point. I read tons of stuff before making a purchase, And bought the MINIS based on all the other SP feedback. From what I gather, these will also go into my HALL OF FAME, I hope.

By the way as for the M&D Rubys, I emailed Daniel to find out whether or not the pair I have needs modification. It sound so amazing I don't believe there is aproblem with my particular unit.  I have read about the Maximus problems and the other current mods underway. 

[kenk]

I actually have a pair of the Rubys that were a demo from Quest for Sound in Pennsylvania.

The 6moons guys gave the rubys very high marks so I was curious.  Actually I was about to demo a pair of Rubys from a dealer but decided to hold off until they updated the x'over.  I hope the Rubys will be ready when my Mini arrive at the end of the month so I can compare  aa

[Zero]

Albireo,

Not to sidetrack Bob's thread into a Mark and Daniel discussion - I nonetheless want to state that your experiences and impressions were spot on. Truth be told, I could not tolerate the original Topaz. That Dreams DM-4 unit was to these ears, intolerably bright, due to a natural spike in the 6khz region on up. The newer crossovers really helped address this, and many other problems that plagued the original design - which is good because I was about ready to publish a far less than positive review, which is never any fun. The upper end models did not suffered fewer issues due to correction already being implemented in their design.

Sorry again for the sidetrack - can't wait to hear feedback on the Mini!

 

[groovybassist]

Bob:  We must be getting close to shipping the first Mini's - any updates?  After all of the positive feedback on the party at Steve's, I'm even more psyched and anxious to hear them!     Thanks.

-Mike

[konut]

Bob:  We must be getting close to shipping the first Mini's - any updates?  After all of the positive feedback on the party at Steve's, I'm even more psyched and anxious to hear them!     Thanks.

-Mike

+1!! 

[Aether Audio]

Guys,

We're back from RMAF and the Minis are at the top of the list. (Well, along with Ultimate crossover upgrades and such).  Fortunately, the Minis are "mini."  We can run them as a side chain along side the other work.  Now that the crossover is worked out it's "plug & chug."

Thank God that RMAF is OVER!!! Now I can finally start getting stuff out the door.

-Bob