[fmw]

Hard to say without doing it myself.  My guess would be that the level of gain isn't matched.  As you know, even a slight mismatch in level will cause a listener to prefer the slightly louder presentation.  Most likely that is what caused it.  Only a level matched test will resolve that for you.

The 320 MP3's are still about 100 mb for a 40 minute record album.  That would compare to about 200  to 250 mb or so for a lossless FLAC file.  Don't confuse 320 MP3's with the MP3's people download from internet music services.  The 320 MP3's really do sound great.  In A/B tests with the same file ripped in FLAC format vs. 320 MP3, I can hear a subtle difference only 5-10% of the time.  The 320 MP3 is good enough for the enjoyment of recorded music.  I'm going to put a second Squeezebox in the room that has my stereo system - same room that houses my CD and record collection.  That's how convenient it is.

Crown International of Elkhart, Indiana makes some of the best amplifiers in the world.  You will find them driving speakers in most of the top recording studios in the country.  It is those amplifiers that drive the monitors that mixing and mastering sound engineers use to make the CD's you buy and play on your system.

[ajzepp]

So your position is that all DACs sound the same?

And are these MP3s you're referring to something you can obtain via download? If so, where?

[ted_b]

FMW,
I'm a little confused by your argument position.  You state that you have SACD's and DVD-Audio discs, so you must appreciate the advantage of hi-resolution playback over redbook, and yet you rip to 320k MP3 cuz you can't really tell the difference?  You say that vinyl setups make a big difference but amps and preamps don't.    You think room acoustics are important but your surround setup of mixed drivers isn't important.  No offense, but I think your priorities are just like the rest of us; you value somethings over others, which is fine; but it does not put you in a great position to speak empirically about "all good amps sound the same" as if it were without debate.  It sounds like it just isn't important to you, that's all.

[Marbles]

Crown International of Elkhart, Indiana makes some of the best amplifiers in the world.  You will find them driving speakers in most of the top recording studios in the country.  It is those amplifiers that drive the monitors that mixing and mastering sound engineers use to make the CD's you buy and play on your system.

Who told you that?  What studios specifically?

I own a Crown K2 and it's OK, great even for sub duties, but I wouldn't want to listen to it long term as a 2 channel amp.

The Professional amps that Crown makes are usually for DJ's and touring bands that need bulletproof lightweight amps that are easy to transport.  They are used in Schools, churchs, bars and large venues for sound systems as well.

I don't know of any big name studio's using them though, although for home studios of starving bands I could certainly see it.

[fmw]

So your position is that all DACs sound the same?

I haven't heard any difference in the ones I've tested.  That isn't a universal statement, however.  The DAC itself is an IC that constructs waveforms from data.  After the DAC is an analog stage that could be incompetently designed but I haven't encountered any.

And are these MP3s you're referring to something you can obtain via download? If so, where?

No you need to rip the CD's yourself at 320 mbps.  The files are quite a bit larger than those you would download from the internet.

[fmw]

FMW,
I'm a little confused by your argument position.  You state that you have SACD's and DVD-Audio discs, so you must appreciate the advantage of hi-resolution playback over redbook, and yet you rip to 320k MP3 cuz you can't really tell the difference? 

Better read my post again.  I can tell the difference between and 320 MP3 and a FLAC file.  I said exactly that.  I said 320 MP3's are good enough for the enjoyment of recorded music.  I didn't say they were as good as FLAC files or SACD's played on an optical disc player.  I can hear the difference between stereo and 5.1 surround as well.  SACD's and DVD-A's incorporate surround sound.  I can't get that from a ripped SACD.

You say that vinyl setups make a big difference but amps and preamps don't.    You think room acoustics are important but your surround setup of mixed drivers isn't important.  No offense, but I think your priorities are just like the rest of us; you value somethings over others, which is fine; but it does not put you in a great position to speak empirically about "all good amps sound the same" as if it were without debate.  It sounds like it just isn't important to you, that's all.

Let me add to your perspective.  When I say all competently designed amps sound the same, I'm adding that it is in a properly conducted, level matched objective blind listening test.  That's not the same thing as preference or values.   I like sexy, hundred pound Class A power amps as well as the next guy.  I just realize that another amp with the same performance measurements will produce the same results.  I realize it, not because of preference, but because of objective testing.

You say amps aren't important to me and they aren't.  In my 20X22' listening room with reasonably efficient 8 ohm speakers, I don't need anything spectacular like I would in a concert hall.  Modest amplifiers handle things just as well in my listening environment.

[fmw]

Crown International of Elkhart, Indiana makes some of the best amplifiers in the world.  You will find them driving speakers in most of the top recording studios in the country.  It is those amplifiers that drive the monitors that mixing and mastering sound engineers use to make the CD's you buy and play on your system.

Who told you that?  What studios specifically?

I own a Crown K2 and it's OK, great even for sub duties, but I wouldn't want to listen to it long term as a 2 channel amp.

The Professional amps that Crown makes are usually for DJ's and touring bands that need bulletproof lightweight amps that are easy to transport.  They are used in Schools, churchs, bars and large venues for sound systems as well.

I don't know of any big name studio's using them though, although for home studios of starving bands I could certainly see it.

Crown makes a wide line of amplifiers.  Some of them are cheap sound reinforcement amps and others are expensive power amps.  Go review the line.  You will see what I mean.  Where did I get my statement about Crown being used in top recording studios?  From Crown.  I'll contact them to see if I can get a list for you with specifics.  They aren't far away from here.

[ajzepp]

All I know is that this conversation has me wondering whether I need to go for a psychological eval, lol. I already know my hearing is excellent cause it's only been a few years since it's been tested. (I have a degree in psych, and for sensory psych we went through all sorts of tests on one another....fun times!) 

There are times when I hear differences among gear/speakers, and times when I don't. I wish I could be where you are and  just not really notice them, cause it would probably save me a lot of money, but the fact is that I DO hear them. To my ears, room treatments and speakers make the most difference, but I can discern among other types of gear, too. The one time when I don't remember hearing a big difference was when I went from a Parasound 5-channel amp to some Outlaw Audio monoblocks. That was one change I could have done without cause I got the Parasound for a song. I also have yet to hear any difference in audio cables, whereas with video I did notice a difference when i picked up a nicer quality component cable from Blue Jeans Cables.

I dunno...I just fall back on what's important, and that's that you are enjoying your system and music, and I'm focused on doing the same 

[Marbles]

Crown makes a wide line of amplifiers.  Some of them are cheap sound reinforcement amps and others are expensive power amps.  Go review the line.  You will see what I mean.  Where did I get my statement about Crown being used in top recording studios?  From Crown.  I'll contact them to see if I can get a list for you with specifics.  They aren't far away from here.

I did review their line and their "D" series are the only ones mentioned for studio work.  My contention is that the TOP studios don't use them, but I could see where some studios more concerned with money than sonics would.

A list of top studios who use their amps for more than sub duties (playback, mixing etc..) would be wonderful.

[fmw]

All I know is that this conversation has me wondering whether I need to go for a psychological eval, lol. I already know my hearing is excellent cause it's only been a few years since it's been tested. (I have a degree in psych, and for sensory psych we went through all sorts of tests on one another....fun times!) 

There are times when I hear differences among gear/speakers, and times when I don't. I wish I could be where you are and  just not really notice them, cause it would probably save me a lot of money, but the fact is that I DO hear them. To my ears, room treatments and speakers make the most difference, but I can discern among other types of gear, too. The one time when I don't remember hearing a big difference was when I went from a Parasound 5-channel amp to some Outlaw Audio monoblocks. That was one change I could have done without cause I got the Parasound for a song. I also have yet to hear any difference in audio cables, whereas with video I did notice a difference when i picked up a nicer quality component cable from Blue Jeans Cables.

I dunno...I just fall back on what's important, and that's that you are enjoying your system and music, and I'm focused on doing the same 

Yes, we all suffer from the same thing.  It is called placebo effect and results from our hearing being connected to our brain which carries all kinds of filters, attitudes, preferences, preconceived notions and so on.  Perfectly normal.  I've had my hearing tested also it is normal just like yours.  The ears are simply the conduit for the sound.  The brain does the processing and that's where our humanity clouds the issue.

I started one day when an audio dealer friend loaned me 15 pairs of interconnect cables and 8 pairs of speaker cables for me to take home and test.  The interconnects ranged in price from around $40 per pair to $2500 per pair.  I set up a blind test with my wife and spent the entire weekend testing them.  Out of 15 pairs of cables only one was "audible."  That pair had an unnaturally high amount of measured inductance in it.  It was, in effect, a coil and rolled off the highs just like a tone control would.  I would view that pair as incompetently designed.  All the others were fine and all of them performed exactly the same in blind tests.  The speaker cables all had no sound at all.  That was the end of subjective listening tests for me.  After reading the "reviews" in some of the high end audio magazines for those same interconnects, I began realizing the folly of the whole thing.  I did blind tests on everything I could get my hands on for a few years after that.

I don't fall for it any longer.  I know better.  Yes, it saves me lots of money.  I've spent 6 figures on audio equipment over the years and I don't have to do it any longer.  I can just listen to the content without worrying about the equipment details.

[fmw]

Crown makes a wide line of amplifiers.  Some of them are cheap sound reinforcement amps and others are expensive power amps.  Go review the line.  You will see what I mean.  Where did I get my statement about Crown being used in top recording studios?  From Crown.  I'll contact them to see if I can get a list for you with specifics.  They aren't far away from here.

I did review their line and their "D" series are the only ones mentioned for studio work.  My contention is that the TOP studios don't use them, but I could see where some studios more concerned with money than sonics would.

A list of top studios who use their amps for more than sub duties (playback, mixing etc..) would be wonderful.

I had a D100 once.  Apparently they don't make it any longer.  It was a super amp and only cost a few hundred bucks.  I checked the specs and they are as good as it gets except that they don't provide any deviation numbers for the frequency response.  I'll try to get those too.

[Marbles]

I don't need any specs.  Just a list of Top studios.  Thanks

[JoshK]

These discussions are pointless if you ask me, one sides points to their DBX tests and the other side doesn't believe in DBX tests, so the discussion is going to go nowhere.  Its not much different than a proselytizer using his book to prove his religion. 

[Marbles]

These discussions are pointless if you ask me, one sides points to their DBX tests and the other side doesn't believe in DBX tests, so the discussion is going to go nowhere.  Its not much different than a proselytizer using his book to prove his religion. 

Hey, everything in the Bible is TRUE because it tells me it is!




(or bye bye thread)

[zybar]

I think Dave's suggestion is what I'd do, but I might even use the receiver's amp on the rears and just use external for the front three. 

That's what I do.   

Denon 3808 + ATI 1506 =   

George

[Marbles]

I think Dave's suggestion is what I'd do, but I might even use the receiver's amp on the rears and just use external for the front three. 

That's what I do.   

Denon 3808 + ATI 1506 =   

George

That's a great idea, I think I will end up going that route once the receivers include the new hi def audio formats.

[JoshK]

Interesting Anecdote, the designer of the Crown K series is an audiophile who like the crown's for bass amps but wouldn't dare use them full range. 

[tvyankee]

That ATI really makes some nice sounding stuff for multi ch.


Zybar, your new home theater system really must be kicking ass.


What projector did you go with?


I saw that screen you got, real nice.

I have to stop by you when i get to Boston for work one day.


You still wearing that Yankee Cap?

[tvyankee]

Marbles

they all ready have the decoding for the hi-def formats.

take a look at them dts-hd and dolby-hd.


no one using it yet, but some day they will.

You know the saying " All good things in all good time"

[Marbles]

Interesting Anecdote, the designer of the Crown K series is an audiophile who like the crown's for bass amps but wouldn't dare use them full range. 

Bob of SP Tech used to work there too:

Before I started SP Tech I worked for 9 years in the engineering department, for the Techron Division of Crown International.  We built audio amplifiers with such high levels of power that they were used in the medical MRI industry (Mostly by General Electric).  40,000-watt amplifiers were the standard size we were manufacturing.

On the first prototype switching power converter that I worked on, I refined the gate drive (IGBTs) circuitry of a 60,000 KVA, 5kHz H-Bridge power converter.  When the early prototypes failed they would short out and blow up like a shotgun going off.  When that happened, the current was so high that it couldn’t be measured.  The magnetic field it produced in the 3-phase 208V power lines was so strong that it would snap the wires against the inside walls of the conduit so hard the walls throughout the lab would shake.  The first time it happened I counted 15 people from throughout the engineering wing that piled in the lab to see if we were all right.

We discovered that the 5KHz transformer was saturating due to core “flux walking,” thus causing a dead short circuit on the output of the H-Bridge.  The top 3 engineers developed a method of sensing core saturation…but it didn’t work.  I developed an implementation that did work and it saved the project.

After that, we moved on to an 8-phase, 2 MHz tracking power converter (we called it the “polyphase buck”) with the same KVA as the previous unit.  By then I was the lead technician and worked directly under the head of R&D – Mr. Gerald Stanley:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/commentary/kc/crn/gi.php

He’s the guy that started the entire solid-state power amp revolution by developing the Crown DC 300 – the first high power SS amp in the world.

Anyway…not only was I responsible for helping to make the thing work, but I also had to train all of the production and service technicians.  Before I left I had also developed a mechanical modification that decreased construction time, increased throughput and made serviceability possible, such that it saved the company something to the tune of $2M/year.  The upshot is that I’ve worked in some of the highest power, state-of-the-art electronics in the world…right here in the cornfields of Indiana.



-Bob

tvyankee, thanks, but what receivers currently decode them?