[TheChairGuy]

Okay everybody - please play nice.  Words such as moron and delusional are sure to stoke emotion in one or more audio enthusiasts.

Thanks,

John / TheChairlessGuy
Modest Moderator 

[macrojack]

Tonepub - You are correct. I sold a pair of Libtec speaker cables to the friend who bought my Druids when I moved up to the Defs. Waddya know, I am a dealer.

Your comment about trying to hit a moving target is what makes me think the whole pursuit is delusional.

[TONEPUB]

I don't know if it is delusional, but it certainly is maddening at times.....

Delusional just seems so harsh and negative, because when you
do get it all right, it's pretty spectacular!

[Plink]

I found some inexpensive cables that convey the audio signal satisfactorily and dismissed the entire topic. Too much importance is attached to this issue. Certainly there are preferences to be considered but these are merely opinion and are of no more merit or significance than any other matter which is decided by personal taste.

Good for you and I largely agree.  I'm thinking I can hear a difference but I believe that 100% of all cables only make the sound different, not better.  This was when I realized that "detail" is not everything in sound reproduction.

[denjo]

There should only be an audible difference between a poorly constructed and a well constructed cable. If the cables are well constructed (example, identical capacitance, inductance and resistance) then there should not be any audible difference, whether the system is highly resolving or not. Last night I used a Y connector and plugged an exotic (expensive) cable in one and a well spec Belden in the other, and these fed my preamp line levels A and B (identical connectors), and with a remote control I toggled between the two sources. Honestly, I would be hard put to tell a difference between the two cables! I am still doing some A/B-ing of various audio cables and whatever views I express here are preliminary observations.

[macrojack]

Tonepub - During one of my ventures into J. Gordon Holt's smoke-filled home, I asked him what he thought of the difference provided by audio cables. He said, "Cables? You mean passive tone controls?".

I think he expressed it pretty well right there. Yes, they make a difference but what is the difference and is it something you want? Perhaps you can EQ anything a cable does for a lot less money and a lot more convenient experimentation.

Power cords are about noise prevention - no signal passes through them. The rest of the cables are seasoning. Try a battery powered amp. Then you won't need expensive Power Cords or Power Conditioners. Decent ICs don't need to cost much. Zu Gede is very good at $199/meter. I'm sure there are others.

This whole topic is ridiculously overblown. If you feel better spending big bucks and chasing ad copy and bought reviews, then you've found the sound that's right for you. The rest of us will make due with the unauthorized, inexpensive enjoyment we have learned to endure. All of us will be happy and this topic can be put aside for more important issues such as cast iron cookware and the Yankees.

[BrianM]

There should only be an audible difference between a poorly constructed and a well constructed cable. If the cables are well constructed (example, identical capacitance, inductance and resistance) then there should not be any audible difference, whether the system is highly resolving or not.

Please, this just begs the question.  Might there be more than one way to construct a cable "well"?? I would think two cables could measure the same but still convey slight differences in sound.

Last night I used a Y connector and plugged an exotic (expensive) cable in one and a well spec Belden in the other, and these fed my preamp line levels A and B (identical connectors), and with a remote control I toggled between the two sources. Honestly, I would be hard put to tell a difference between the two cables! I am still doing some A/B-ing of various audio cables and whatever views I express here are preliminary observations.

Interesting anecdote, from which nobody would be advised to draw any general conclusions.

Bottom line for me: it is certainly possible to hear small differences between cables in a given system.  Why wouldn't it be?  (Now, if a cable was outright faulty or inappropriate I'm sure the difference could be more than small, obviously.) Small changes make small differences, and swapping cables usually amounts to a small change.  At the end of the day it's just shielded wire, so if you're spending big bucks you're probably a sucker, no matter what kind of R/D went into constructing it.  I recently experimented with some magnet wire and thought I could hear a slight improvement.  Magnet wire is cheap, and no way would I have shelled out hundreds or thousands of dollars for a slight improvement.  Both poles of this controversy get pretty dogmatic.

[BrianM]

Power cords are about noise prevention - no signal passes through them. The rest of the cables are seasoning. Try a battery powered amp. Then you won't need expensive Power Cords or Power Conditioners. Decent ICs don't need to cost much. Zu Gede is very good at $199/meter.

$199/meter? What's the mfr markup on that?  400%?  It's wire for chrissake.

Power cords are where this debate goes off the rails IMO.  I've yet to hear anything remotely convincing about their necessity and have yet to hear a difference in the conditioning dept.

[jneutron]

Typical speaker wires are being used at an impedance far lower than the cable impedance.  As a result of this, the primary storage mechanism is inductive.  The energy storage in the wire can be a significant percentage of the total output signal, and it is a lagging storage. This storage mechanism feeding a frequency selective branch system (crossover) has it's own issues...certainly beyond the level of discussion here.

Typical IC's are being used with impedances far above the cable z, meaning the primary storage mechanism will be capacitive.  Same trait as the speaker wires, lagging storage.

Speaker wires benefit from low inductive geometries,  best attacked via geometry, alas the capacitance is inversely related.  IC's  benefit from lower capacitance, dielectric related.

Line cords?  Simple.  Forget anything getting in via the supply...we all concur with noise entry there. 

The line cord alters the ground loop geometry, therefore the coupling constants between the amp draw (and ancillary draws) and the ground bounce.  What do you think ground loop hum is all about?

The question is always one of degree, and always one of measurement.

We do not have the technology yet to measure soundstage image placement, image stability, or image spread.  But yet, that is what we hear..

When we see right to left differential measurements in the 1 uSec resolution timeframe, and .1 dB differential amplitude resolution, then we will see why different RLC attributes can alter the image.  Not until then, however.

Cheers, John

[AJinFLA]

The question is always one of degree, and always one of measurement. 

Measurements? Dude, haven't you heard? Skientists (and musicians??) sez we can't measure everything (I'm still not sure exactly who it is that said that we could. I've never seen a direct quote of such). I think you need to hang out on these boards a lot more often to get that schmeasurement stuff outta your system (literally).

We do not have the technology yet to measure soundstage image placement, image stability, or image spread.  But yet, that is what we hear..

Whats taking so long with them fancy arrays?

When we see right to left differential measurements in the 1 uSec resolution timeframe, and .1 dB differential amplitude resolution, then we will see why different RLC attributes can alter the image.  Not until then, however.

Have you seen some of the speakers being used in these listening "tests"? The ones being touted as "hi-rez"?
The time domain performance alone makes me wonder how they can be hearing just about anything...

cheers,

AJ

[jneutron]

Measurements? Dude, haven't you heard? Skientists (and musicians??) sez we can't measure everything (I'm still not sure exactly who it is that said that we could. I've never seen a direct quote of such). I think you need to hang out on these boards a lot more often to get that schmeasurement stuff outta your system (literally)....

I missed the "skientist" reference..

I recall many people saying "if it can be heard, it can be measured".  But consistently, they speak of noise and harmonic distortion.  Never soundstage attributes.

Whats taking so long with them fancy arrays? ...

As I said before, they are quite low on the priority list.  I just completed the summer audio support stuff (whew), and am now looking at gutting a bedroom....house is pre-1900, insulation is needed, baseboard, same ole same ole.

But at least my basement is looking better.

Have you seen some of the speakers being used in these listening "tests"? The ones being touted as "hi-rez"?
The time domain performance alone makes me wonder how they can be hearing just about anything...

You can't confuse an individual driver or system response with left-right differential.  Piss poor speakers can still present images within a soundfield.  But the geometric stability of the images will suffer.  Case in point my mid cabs, where I didn't bother matching the crossover elements...this caused sibilance to be right of center vocal..

But they do indeed image..just not adequately for a home listening environment and quiet listening where I would worry about the image.  But they did kick well in a 450 seat venue.

Cheers, John

[denjo]

Bill Whitlock, President of Jensen transformers, once joked that "the definition of a cable is a source of potential trouble connecting two other sources of potential trouble." How true those words in the context of cables and this thread!




 

[AJinFLA]

I recall many people saying "if it can be heard, it can be measured".  But consistently, they speak of noise and harmonic distortion.  Never soundstage attributes.

True. But let me ask you this, have you ever seen a wire or cable "review" that went something like this:
"I noticed a slight shift in image depth and a small roll of in the upper treble region. The End."
Or is it typically more like 8 pages of Alice in Wonderland?

As I said before, they are quite low on the priority list.  I just completed the summer audio support stuff (whew), and am now looking at gutting a bedroom....house is pre-1900, insulation is needed, baseboard, same ole same ole.

Yeah I know. Just bustin your chops. I'm not one to talk about finishing projects myself

You can't confuse an individual driver or system response with left-right differential.  Piss poor speakers can still present images within a soundfield.  But the geometric stability of the images will suffer.  Case in point my mid cabs, where I didn't bother matching the crossover elements...this caused sibilance to be right of center vocal..

But they do indeed image..just not adequately for a home listening environment and quiet listening where I would worry about the image.  But they did kick well in a 450 seat venue.

Cheers, John

True again. But my actual point was that the very same people obsessing and spending $$$k on wires are also often the ones with speakers/rooms that leave a great deal to be desired. Something that blind tests won't mask for 1 second.
I won't even get into the signal scramble of the electronics that drive them.

cheers,

AJ

[Daygloworange]

True. But let me ask you this, have you ever seen a wire or cable "review" that went something like this:
"I noticed a slight shift in image depth and a small roll of in the upper treble region. The End."
Or is it typically more like 8 pages of Alice in Wonderland?

AJ

Sadly, you are right about the 8 pages of Alice in Wonderland. Even if the differences are as simple as you say, they can still go on and on about it, ad nauseum....

It's no different than when people make claims that their soundstage all of a sudden became twice as large when they change an IC, PC, or SC. I seriously doubt that anything could make ones soundstage double in apparent size or depth.

Cheers

[jneutron]

True. But let me ask you this, have you ever seen a wire or cable "review" that went something like this:
"I noticed a slight shift in image depth and a small roll of in the upper treble region. The End."
Or is it typically more like 8 pages of Alice in Wonderland?

Embellishment is rampant.  But that is what is expected by the general public..  If pure scientific explanations of perceived differences were provided instead, even I'd fall asleep..

Yeah I know. Just bustin your chops. I'm not one to talk about finishing projects myself

Actually, I've finished lots of projects.  But our priorities do not lie with audio first.  At my house, audio is to be heard and not seen.  I just put a pair of dual outdoor speakers in the landscape area around the patio..a pair of those three way 4 inch driver ones PE had on sale for 24 dollars a pair..  They meet the need, they work..  I am concerned however, that since they are "moisture resistant", but lie under two bushes in the sprinkler pattern cones, that they may last only the season.  At $24 per pair, no problem.  Course, now they're $37 per pair..I'll buy another set and store em.

But my actual point was that the very same people obsessing and spending $$$k on wires are also often the ones with speakers/rooms that leave a great deal to be desired.

True enough in some cases.  However, since most a'philes recommend a percentage of budget be used on cables, the wire cost is generally under control.  If 10K were pocket change for me, I certainly wouldn't care what the cost was of these fancy wires.  For me, under 5 dollars and I don't care what it cost..

Since they do perceive cable differences (real or otherwise), telling them it's "all in their mind" most likely shuts them down to any further recommendations from those bashing them..so room or speaker recommendations are probably not gonna be listened to.

I won't even get into the signal scramble of the electronics that drive them.

Ah, where to start with that..

I am amazed at the very poor way modern electronics is designed.  Not the actual circuits mind you, many simulation packages are wonderful.  But the layout for low impedance, high power gain chassis is so poorly done, I'm suprised audio has gone as far as it has.  Even more suprising is the continued disparity between tube and solid state "sound", when the reasons are so easy to see.

And then there's the mixdown at the studio...sigh..

Cheers, John

[macrojack]

BrianM - I'm not saying the price of any cable is justifiable because I really don't know what it costs to make them but I imagine if you consider the cost of parts and labor, advertising and packaging, promo materials and correspondence, bookkeeping and insurance, etc., etc., etc. there isn't a hell of a lot of fat in the $199 price. But, again, I don't really know. What I do know is that the $199 price is paltry by comparison to what most of us are thinking about when we have this discussion. $2000 interconnects have become fairly common and $10,000 pairs are said to exist.

[BrianM]

Even more suprising is the continued disparity between tube and solid state "sound", when the reasons are so easy to see.

Hi, can you explain what exactly you mean by this? Thanks..

[BrianM]

BrianM - I'm not saying the price of any cable is justifiable because I really don't know what it costs to make them but I imagine if you consider the cost of parts and labor, advertising and packaging, promo materials and correspondence, bookkeeping and insurance, etc., etc., etc. there isn't a hell of a lot of fat in the $199 price. But, again, I don't really know. What I do know is that the $199 price is paltry by comparison to what most of us are thinking about when we have this discussion. $2000 interconnects have become fairly common and $10,000 pairs are said to exist.

True enough.

[AJinFLA]

Even more suprising is the continued disparity between tube and solid state "sound", when the reasons are so easy to see.

You trying to ignite WW3? As if wires were not contentious enough
This is the part where I usually get the death threats, so I think I'll bow out now before the eruption.

All the best,

- AJ

[jneutron]

Even more suprising is the continued disparity between tube and solid state "sound", when the reasons are so easy to see.

Hi, can you explain what exactly you mean by this? Thanks..

The bulk of the circuitry internal to a tube amplifier is high impedance.  Low currents..I recall my 6l6 beast with 6600 ohm ct transformer impedance.  At these impedances, very little magnetic field is created even though the output is a whopping 55 watts rms..

Contrast that with a solid state beast.  The full speaker currents are inside the chassis, free to do what they will....and they will.

If you apply amperes law to the output rail currents, you can derive the magfield caused by it.  This magfield is time varying...apply faradays law of induction to any circuit loops within the chassis, and you can derive the induced voltage that will permeate the circuits.  I did this a while back, don't recall which forum I posted it on...but with a 10 ampere output current, induced voltages were in the millivolt range at the square centimeter area, at a khz or so.  This kind of induced error will not be found using an FFT, as it's only phase error, and slight.  But it gets complex when there is a smaller hf signal riding on a large bass one, as the induction back to the front end of the amp will be dependent on the quadrant the output stage is running...the positive rail and the negative rail of the output source will never broadcast the same.

Star grounding techniques are absolutely great for tube stuff, as well as any high impedance circuits.  But for low z solid state, it sucks.  I've had to re-think quite a few chassis and widgits because star grounding is not the panacea all think it is.

If one were to look at standard rf techniques, one could see how they've solved the problem.  But even at low frequencies, like audio, I have felt the "pain" of induced voltages causing errors.  Many RF techniques are extremely useful in audio, but not many understand how.

Cheers, John