[Daygloworange]

AJ inFLA,

Thanks for the link.

Are you saying sighted tests are not flawed? Or are you saying that they are not flawed when you do them? Because you have done them for 20yrs ?

I'm not discussing sighted tests in particular. I'm just saying that I clearly hear certain things at certain times. And after 20 years (and thousands and thousands of hours)of being a "critical" listener, I might be better than some at it. It's kinda part of the job.

Are you saying I need to poke my eyes out with a needle before my ears can be taken seriously? 

Agreed. Many folks have been saying exactly the same thing you have, but as Steve has pointed out repeatedly, no one has been able to demonstrate this in controlled listening tests.

??????? In what circumstance???????  Don't make such a blanket statement. Are you saying no one has been ever able in a blind test to tell the difference between 2 of anything?

You have analyzed yourself to be a "better" listener - and found this to be correct.

Yes I have. Better than I used to be before having invested all those hours.

I've also become a better musician after many years of practice as well. I've got the tapes to prove that as well, as well as independant testimonials from others who have heard me progress. Are you going to double blind test them as well? 

Case in point that even after 20yrs, sometimes external influence is needed.

Actually, I have no idea what "case in point" you feel you have made. 
 

Cheers

[Freo-1]

Carl, I did not mean for you to think that you were to shut up and listen to Steve Eddy, or you were were a wanker.  The crux of your post read to me like it was dismissive of one side, like they had no right to be here on the site, so the idea was attacked, not you personally!! (As Duke always says, we love you all madly!)   Sorry I did not make that clearer, will endeavor to ensure ideas, not people are at issue.

Here is yet another link on the subject:

http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm

[PaulFolbrecht]

ok, here goes:  good cable, w/o breaking the bank (i have no affiliation).  hand polished 4-nines 22ga pure silver in ptfe sleeving:

"PURE SOLID SILVER TRIPLE SHIELDED RCA AUDIO CABLES
One Meter Pair! Superb Sonics! Unrivaled Build Quality!"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230165623222

I've ordered two pair of these and will report.

[doug s.]

ok, here goes:  good cable, w/o breaking the bank (i have no affiliation).  hand polished 4-nines 22ga pure silver in ptfe sleeving:

"PURE SOLID SILVER TRIPLE SHIELDED RCA AUDIO CABLES
One Meter Pair! Superb Sonics! Unrivaled Build Quality!"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230165623222

I've ordered two pair of these and will report.

cool!  i suspect they will be comparable to the kimber kable kcag, which retails for ~$600/meter pair...  i have one pair of kimber knock-offs similar to the kcag's, (a gift, that the buyer paid ~$100 for), & it's a nice cable...  this white zombie cable is shielded, tho.  it will be interesting to hear your report.  i was tempted to buy some, too, but i don't need anything, really.  i wonder how much they'd charge for a 6m run - hmmm...   i also wonder about getting a 6m run of zaolla cables; i have been quoted prices of ~$250 shipped, from dealers...

http://zaolla.com/

doug s.

doug s.

[DaveC113]

http://zaolla.com/

doug s.

Those look like thay would be great for my bass guitar (so it says in the product description  ) or for mic cables. They seem overly complicated for a home system.

[Daygloworange]

 

For any AC members that will be attending RMAF, both Danny from GR Research, and Wayne from Bolder Cable will, in the after hours, run A/B tests of IC's, SC's in their systems for any interested in coming by and judging for themselves, the sonic differences of cabling.

Both Wayne and Danny have experimented plenty with cables in their systems, and feel that despite the less than ideal conditions that their show systems will be capable of highlighting differences of cabling in the audio chain.

Wayne will also demonstrate a number of different power supplies powering his latest version of the modded SB 3 called The Statement SB 3.

This will be a treat for sure, as they will both be displaying the latest and greatest offerings they have currently developed.

GR Research's RMAF system/ featuring Dodd Audio products:



Bolder Cables RMAF system:

We will be back at RMAF this year.

We will be in the same room as before. 1009. 10th floor in the tower.

Our system will be the Statement modded Squeeze Box 3



Feeding the B4 (BOLDER/Bent/Burson Buffer)



The amps are not confirmed quite yet, but there should be a pair of 100 watt tube mono-blocks  

We will be featuring VMPS speakers again this year.

Brian Cheney has made the gracious offer to supply a pair of RM V60 and a powered sub for the show  



Please stop by Room 1009 when you come to Denver in the fall to say hello and take a listen to what I am sure will be a fun system.

Should be fun, and educational!  

Thanks for being great sports guys!  

Cheers

[AJinFLA]

I'm not discussing sighted tests in particular. I'm just saying that I clearly hear certain things at certain times. And after 20 years (and thousands and thousands of hours)of being a "critical" listener, I might be better than some at it. It's kinda part of the job.

You are discussing (like many others) listening with external biases. How good of a listener you rate yourself is irrelevant. A resume is not required to be the subject of a DBT. The idea of a DBT is to remove biases. It is a test for whether you can reliably pick out cable/wire/whatnot A over B outside of statistical chance with someone else running the experiment without knowing which cable A or B is also. Nothing like you do in your studio.

Are you saying I need to poke my eyes out with a needle before my ears can be taken seriously? 

 

??????? In what circumstance???????

See above or Steve's many prior posts, which I assume you read.

Don't make such a blanket statement. Are you saying no one has been ever able in a blind test to tell the difference between 2 of anything?

What statements I make and what you imagine are two different things.

Yes I have. Better than I used to be before having invested all those hours.
I've also become a better musician after many years of practice as well. I've got the tapes to prove that as well, as well as independant testimonials from others who have heard me progress. Are you going to double blind test them as well? 

Once again, you self assessed skills are irrelevant to the test. The statistical outcome is.

Actually, I have no idea what "case in point" you feel you have made. 

See below

As a matter of fact, it forced me to re-check myself as I was critically listening to 2 different power supplies on my SB 3 this evening.
The verdict? I most certainly clearly hear differences in the 2 power supplies.
Should I find the time, I would even try and record a two channel recording of my speakers with the different power supplies and burn it on a CD for others to hear. I'd love to do it, just dunno if I can find the time.

Why would you need to do that? The power supplies you're comparing are only powering the SB3, not everything else in your system. So why couldn't you simply make the recording straight off the SB3's output?

That case in point of external influence being helpful.

If you'd like, make two identical recordings, each using a different power supply on the SB3, and send them to me. I'll let you pick one recording or the other to use for reference. Then I'll make say a dozen copies, each randomly selected to be one power supply or the other. I'll send them to you and you can do your evaluation without any knowledge of which tracks are which power supply.

Admittedly this would be just single blind. But if the results turn out positive, it could be made to be double blind and repeated.

Steve has given you a nice opportunity to demonstrate your trained hearing here. Why not take him up on it and post the results here so that we may all learn something?

For any AC members that will be attending RMAF, both Danny from GR Research, and Wayne from Bolder Cable will, in the after hours, run A/B tests of IC's, SC's in their systems for any interested in coming by and judging for themselves, the sonic differences of cabling.
Both Wayne and Danny have experimented plenty with cables in their systems, and feel that despite the less than ideal conditions that their show systems will be capable of highlighting differences of cabling in the audio chain.
Wayne will also demonstrate a number of different power supplies powering his latest version of the modded SB 3 called The Statement SB 3.

What a pity they couldn't also do this at a scientific forum with peer observation and review. Of course, that bunch is not their intended target/paying customer. Sounds like it will be fun anyway, as folks get to reassure themselves while listening to some tunes.

cheers,

AJ

[Daygloworange]

Nothing like you do in your studio.

We spend most of the time A/B'ing stuff in the studio trying to get the best sound we can. I don't know what you think the purpose of a studio is.

What statements I make and what you imagine are two different things.

You're blanket statement was pretty clear. I believe I addressed it accordingly.

Once again, you self assessed skills are irrelevant to the test. The statistical outcome is.

Once again, I answered your question appropriately, and accordingly.

That case in point of external influence being helpful.

Wrong. I came to the same conclusion as Steve Eddy on my own after I went over it in my mind.

Steve has given you a nice opportunity to demonstrate your trained hearing here. Why not take him up on it and post the results here so that we may all learn something?

Why acknowledge that my hearing is trained now? When a minute ago it was irrelevant and all that mattered was the statistical outcome?

Actually I will be sending him what he requested. Quite frankly, I doubt any result I post will have any relevance for you, so why request it? You aren't here to learn anything. Stop pretending that you're open minded.

What a pity they couldn't also do this at a scientific forum with peer observation and review. Of course, that bunch is not their intended target/paying customer. Sounds like it will be fun anyway, as folks get to reassure themselves while listening to some tunes.

It'll be fun for some of us.

Nothing is ever gonna be good enough for you is it? What would qualify as scientific forum for you? There will be tons of industry peers, audiophiles, journalists at RMAF.

Why do you imply that they are afraid of doing this in front of their peers? How many other places will there be so many of their peers?

Sheesh.

[DaveC113]

...folks get to reassure themselves while listening to some tunes.

cheers,

AJ

I suppose you're also an expert in psychology, and deeply understand the motivation behind why people would want to experiment with different cables 

The tone I get from you is also very judgemental, which precludes objectivity 

[JohnR]

Hang on, did someone say something about a thousand dollars?? Send it to me and I'll make good use of it     (What, do you think this soapbox is free???  )

Aaaaaanyway, did y'all know that when you are viewing the front page, there's a little link called "Configure." Click on it, and it will let you add a whole Circle to your ignore list. Works for me (or has, for the last few days... )

Carry on

[NewBuyer]

...  i also wonder about getting a 6m run of zaolla cables; i have been quoted prices of ~$250 shipped, from dealers...

http://zaolla.com/

doug s.

doug s.

I use the Zaolla silver balanced cables in my home stereo, they are actually very nice indeed (extremely robust with outstanding XLR connectors). However my BlueJeans balanced cables sound just as good in my system, no difference to be heard, even though they are copper vs. the Zaolla silver...

[doug s.]

...  i also wonder about getting a 6m run of zaolla cables; i have been quoted prices of ~$250 shipped, from dealers...

http://zaolla.com/

doug s.

doug s.

I use the Zaolla silver balanced cables in my home stereo, they are actually very nice indeed (extremely robust with outstanding XLR connectors). However my BlueJeans balanced cables sound just as good in my system, no difference to be heard, even though they are copper vs. the Zaolla silver...

well, then, that just means your system isn't resolving enough, or you're deaf!     yust kidding!   

actually, i suspect it points more towards what i have always felt - that there are differences between cables, some are better than others, but you don't have to sell your first-born, or have mega bucks to afford them.

doug s.

[DaveC113]

I use the Zaolla silver balanced cables in my home stereo, they are actually very nice indeed (extremely robust with outstanding XLR connectors). However my BlueJeans balanced cables sound just as good in my system, no difference to be heard, even though they are copper vs. the Zaolla silver...

It looks like the construction of the Blue Jeans cable is very close to the Zaolla. The double shielded deign might make it more difficult to hear any differences that might exist between Cu and Ag?

doug s, I agree completely. There are only so many designs, geometries and materials to make cables out of. Once they get over a couple hundred you have to wonder what it is you're paying for... I'm not saying some other higher end cables aren't worth it, I just wonder where the money is going.

[NewBuyer]

...It looks like the construction of the Blue Jeans cable is very close to the Zaolla. The double shielded deign might make it more difficult to hear any differences that might exist between Cu and Ag?...

Well I can tell you this, the Zaolla cables are *extremely* thick and much less flexible than the BJC's (although you can flex them, you just need to mean it when you do). This isn't a weakness, in fact it's kind of nice when you flex them into just the shape you need, and they will then keep this shape. You wouldn't confuse the Zaolla's and the BJC's if placed side-by-side, that's for sure!

[AJinFLA]

We spend most of the time A/B'ing stuff in the studio trying to get the best sound we can.

Good. Then use that acquired experience in listening to wires/whatnot in the studio and being able to tell a difference, to reliably pick out a wire during a DBT. What could be simpler? Finally put to rest the question of the thread title.

I don't know what you think the purpose of a studio is.

If the purpose allows you to to reliably pick wires in a DBT, then use your ability and show it. Why not become the first ever to do so?
Do you know why DBT's are uses throughout science, not just audio? Do you know their purpose? Your needle in eye comment puts that in doubt.

Wrong. I came to the same conclusion as Steve Eddy on my own after I went over it in my mind.

Coincidences happen in life.

Why acknowledge that my hearing is trained now? When a minute ago it was irrelevant and all that mattered was the statistical outcome?
Actually I will be sending him what he requested.

Good. What you think I acknowledge won't affect the outcome. The outcome is all that matters.

Quite frankly, I doubt any result I post will have any relevance for you, so why request it? You aren't here to learn anything.

Continued hand waving and pointing the finger at me in distraction won't answer the question of whether wires are just audio jewelry or not, even if it makes you feel better to release some frustration.

Stop pretending that you're open minded.

Nothing is ever gonna be good enough for you is it?

You or anyone else reliably picking a wire in a DBT will be good enough for me. Can you do become the first to do it, instead of saying you can?

What would qualify as scientific forum for you?

Not Danny's after hrs listening "demo".

There will be tons of industry peers, audiophiles, journalists at RMAF.

Yes, I know. The mere mention of DBT might cause incredulity.

Why do you imply that they are afraid of doing this in front of their peers?

Perhaps you might ask them that yourself? Why hasn't a manufacturer with enough resources (or enough determination) performed or had an independent 3rd party perform DBT's that would finally lay this question to rest?
Plus give them a solid selling point for their ads: "Shown to be an improvement/better/etc using the scientific method instead of "I heard it"."

Since you plan on attending Danny Ritchie's "demo", perhaps you could have him demo what he kindly invited me to come listen to for myself at his shop. i.e. that he could easily hear cable "burn in"? It would be a nice chance for you to see if you too can hear this as Danny says he can. Or is this something you have already done in studio?

I suppose you're also an expert in psychology

No. But I am aware it applies to humans. Are you? Have you ever seen it mentioned by folks making claims about wires and photos in freezers?

and deeply understand the motivation behind why people would want to experiment with different cables 

My understanding of motivation is of what relevance to the question of whether someone can identify a wire in a DBT? More hand waving.

The tone I get from you is also very judgemental, which precludes objectivity 

I concede expertise in psychology to you.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. Dayglow, what happened to that "truth" stuff you edited from you previous post? What was that all about?

[doug s.]

dbt testing rarely, if ever, can be conclusively used to demonstrate anything relating to one's ability to decipher small differences in audio gear.  it's a flawed medium - too many wariables that cannot be controlled to get an accurate measure.  "objectivists" need to find another horse to ride - dbt is dead, & they should stop beating it.  imo...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Daygloworange]

AJ,

I'm not sure what I edited about truth in my previous post. I do edit my posts after reading them from time to time.

As far as the in A/B'ing in the studio, anytime time you begin a session, the first thing is mic selection. You will have X amount of general purpose mics, and X amount of specialized mics. Sometimes the best mic for the specific job is one you wouldn't have thought to use.

Then we move to Eq, compression, and ambiance effects (digital or room miking) and so on.

That's what I meant by constantly A/B'ing in the studio. As far as A/B'ing cables and such, you have to remember that a lot of stuff in the studio is balanced and runs at pro level. There's the +4 and -10db difference between pro and consumer audio.

I don't find that there exists as much debate on cables in pro audio as there is in 2 channel audio.

Before I came to AC, I never heard debates among engineers on wire, and cabling and so on.

But I will say this about hearing differences. In the last 2 years I have built a number of speakers, and have upgraded my entire system a whole lot. It's only now that I have come to realize that I didn't know what levels of resolution where possible with electronics.

I assumed (and as it turns out, incorrectly) that as someone who owned a studio with pro gear that what I had would be superior to virtually any home hi-fi system.

I was wrong. I was wrong because I didn't know any better existed. I hadn't experienced it.

My systems resolution and clarity has gone up in what I would call leaps and bounds ( incrementally of course).

I know better now. I'm still finding it out as we speak. And I have a number of things that I will have the opportunity to audition that apparently promise even better performance out of my personal 2 channel system.

One of the main reasons I'm going to RMAF is to hear Danny's sytem. I have chatted numerous time with him about audio, and often it comes to the fact that perhaps although I own GR Research speakers (and have gone up the ranks in his product line), my front end is not capable of the resolution that his system is.

AJ, I'm just telling you what I've learned. Perhaps it hasn't been the same experience for you.

Your questions are legitimate however. Your skepticism as well.

The questions you have as to why the cable guys haven't done a comprehensive scientific test to once and for all clearly establish differences in cables is beyond me. I have pondered the same thing many, many times. The answer probably lies in what the return on investment would be. Possibly also that the cable people don't actually want to go head to head with each other and possibly be annihilated.

And it doesn't change what somebody might actually have a preference for. For example if silver was found to be the closest to having no wire at all, and therefore the purest cable for transparent audio reproduction, people might still prefer that sound of an inferior type of wire.

Then what?

As far as DBT testing, ABX testing and so forth. There are flaws in that as well. Because of way humans can work themselves up, or psyche themselves out. In criminal psychology it's been shown that an innocent man upon intense interrogation in a remote location can actually within a short period of time admit to a crime he never did and actually be convinced he might have actually done it.

Humans are not machines and cannot be calibrated.

I think you and I are more similar on the topic than dissimilar, in a lot of ways.

Cheers

[AJinFLA]

I think you and I are more similar on the topic than dissimilar, in a lot of ways.

Absolutely. I imagine that we thoroughly enjoy both the production and reproduction of music. The giveaway is that we are both here on this site.
Say hi to Danny for me, wish I could attend RMAF this year. Do enjoy such shows, as yes, there is always music being played.

cheers,

AJ

[Daygloworange]

 I imagine that we thoroughly enjoy both the production and reproduction of music. The giveaway is that we are both here on this site.

cheers,

AJ

Yup, I would even say I've become somewhat obsessive about it as my system has evolved. 

Much to my chagrin. 

Cheers

[Summer]

OK, troll feeding time...
Summer,
I too do not see the reason for your post unless it is simply an advert for Tributaries cable.

And yet, if what you say is true, there should be no reason for Tributaries to exist.

After reading the Tributaries site I do see the many ways they differentiate themselves from those evil people that sell audio cables:

"our products are only based on high quality tried and tested materials and on scientific principles" Ahhh, I see. Those other cable companies that use these mysterious materials (copper, silver, teflon, PVC) don't base their cables on scientific principles.

"bring discernable improvement to any audio or video system by using advanced methods..."  But wait, I thought you said this was not possible with wire. I guess the competitors' methods aren't advanced enough to make a difference.

Or maybe it's the radical way they design cables by considering the "...choice of conductors, choice of connectors, impedance stability, cable flexibility, testing..."  Damn, the cat's outta the bag now - Other mfgs are surely going to start the consider their choices of conductors and connectors now, and they may even start to test their cables, surely revolutionizing the entire industry!! (Although as you say this makes no difference in the sound. Hmmmmm...)

Or maybe the nylon mesh which "gives the cable an elegant look to compliment your equipment"  Now that's surely worth spending extra on, since the other aspects of the cable are irrelevant to their performance.

Or is it the time savings you get when doing digital video editing since the Tributaries coax "ensures a fast lock-on to the digital data stream." Jeez what am I going to do with all that extra time, lemme see... 

Or the way their biwire speaker cable "...achieves a sonic advantage resulting in greater high frequency detail and an improved sound stage." Ooops, forgot that wasn't possible. My bad.

OK, I'll stop now.

Let me state that I have absolutely no issue at all with Tributaries cable! (Ironically I was just given a demo pr of spkr cable to try out just yesterday by a dealer after never hearing of the company!) They have a really good web site and they appear to make a quality product.

But isn't it kinda weird that they invoke Gordon Gow's name, and that "The company's philosophical inspiration was the late Gordon J. Gow..." when it is GJG himself that you claim to be the cable myth-buster? 

Maybe I see the intent of your post now - It's sort of an "Emperor's New Clothes" thing where the entire premise of your post (GJG has proven that cables make no difference and that there is a company called Tributaries Cables that claims their inspiration for existing to the same GJG) is so totally contradictory that you wanted to see if we'd notice.

I did.


"Feeding Time"?  Please. 

If you read his text very carefully, Joe's web site text at Tributaries does not conflict with Gordon Gow's findings about wire or cable as CEO of McIntosh.  Note that Gordon Gow's search for perfection that Tributaries claims does not mention that Gordon approved expensive wires or cables.  McIntosh was never in the wire business and the search for  perfection did not include wire.  For that matter, I have not seen not one post that can reference a high end audio manufacturer that recommends expensive interconnects, cables, or the grand daddy of all audio rip offs, power cords for their equipment?  Why is that?

You will find no endorsement by Gordon Gow because he had passed away. Joe's (Tributaries Cables President) sister was married to Gordon Gow.  Your way off base.  I am not endorsing Tributaries at all, but Gordon's name does appear there, as respect to a audio legend and family member.