[Marbles]

Damn that hider!!!   



PS: Erika was let go on Friday..she was replaced by a walking wet dream named "KC".

[Russell Dawkins]

I am curious, Eric - what would you be using to make the comparison, the Sason granite speakers?

[ehider]

Hi Russell,

Yes I would use my Sason Granites. The Sasons have been "giant magnifying glasses" when it comes to hearing the smallest differences in various equipment and cable comparisons, etc... (I wouldn't make that $1,000 double blind bet with just "any ole speaker" mind you) 

[TONEPUB]

Anyone reading this thread who believes or thinks cables can't possbily have audible difference really needs to hear a proper audio system/set-up that easily shows these differences. As an Electrical Engineer myself, I can handily tell you that no one with this particular degree learns enough about the wave field effects, interactive conductor/insulator/shield interactions, materials science or any of the dozens of other interactivities that may be preset in small signal effects within audio cables. All of the "technical" arguments from people "schooled" in EE  just don't hold water with me (there needs to be more evidence and testing than just that damn degree!). .  Lastly, I am willing to bet right here, right now an even bet of $1,000 that I can readily identify the differences between any cable against my current reference cable. Double blind test, you control the variability of which cable comes first then second, with perfect results 5 times over! The only requirement to meet my wager is that we use my own personal audio system, in my listening room, with my ears. You bring the blindfold. All takers are welcome, I need to make some easy money this month!  aa

I couldn't agree with you more...

One of my partners in TONE has a EEE and a PhD in Physics (and is also a professional oboe player)
and he readily admits that the measurements only go so far.  We both have systems capable of a
very high degree of resolution and musicality and you can definitely hear any change made, be it an
interconnect, speaker cable or power cord.

Mind you, it's not always a HUGE, jaw dropping experience, but if you have a system with
excellent resolution and decent recordings it becomes pretty easy.

I'll give you my vote of confidence!!

[AdamM]

Lastly, I am willing to bet right here, right now an even bet of $1,000 that I can readily identify the differences between any cable against my current reference cable

Oh, i'd love to take you up on that ehider !   Where do you live?   To add more fun, i'll bring a set of $80 DIY cables which may topple your giants, as well as a $3 set and a $1500 'well respected' pair for control.

How old are you?  It's a valid question due to high frequency roll off.

Judging by your timezone, i think you're almost on exactly the other side of the planet from me...   

/A

[Steve Eddy]

Anyone reading this thread who believes or thinks cables can't possbily have audible difference really needs to hear a proper audio system/set-up that easily shows these differences.

This has been said many times by many others over many years.

As an Electrical Engineer myself, I can handily tell you that no one with this particular degree learns enough about the wave field effects, interactive conductor/insulator/shield interactions, materials science or any of the dozens of other interactivities that may be preset in small signal effects within audio cables. All of the "technical" arguments from people "schooled" in EE  just don't hold water with me (there needs to be more evidence and testing than just that damn degree!). .

Certainly having a degree doesn't make for a valid argument.

Lastly, I am willing to bet right here, right now an even bet of $1,000 that I can readily identify the differences between any cable against my current reference cable. Double blind test, you control the variability of which cable comes first then second, with perfect results 5 times over! The only requirement to meet my wager is that we use my own personal audio system, in my listening room, with my ears. You bring the blindfold. All takers are welcome, I need to make some easy money this month!  aa

Actually there has been an offer on the table over at rec.audio.high-end for some years now which I think has climbed to something like $3,000 or $4,000 for anyone who is able to demonstrate what you claim to be capable of demonstrating. To my knowledge, no one has done so.

As for using your own personal system in your own listening room with your own ears, Tom Nousaine has installed ABX systems in a number of people's homes who have high end, high resolution systems and who have been as just as sure of themselves as you are. They've been allowed to do their testing at their own leisure for as long as they wanted. I think some had been installed for over a year.

At the end of the day, none of them were successful.

Some have tried to argue that the switchbox somehow prevents differences from being perceived, however those under test were confident they perceived the differences when switching between A and B (which are both known to the listener in the ABX scheme). But when it came to identifying X, which is randomly selected to be either A or B, the results showed nothing better than could be expected by simply guessing.

So if you're as confident as you claim to be and can finally put an end to this age old debate and collect more than the $1,000 you offer, I'd suggest getting in touch with Tom Nousaine. He would be happy to come set up an ABX system for you provided you pay his travel expenses.

se

[Steve Eddy]

One of my partners in TONE has a EEE and a PhD in Physics (and is also a professional oboe player)
and he readily admits that the measurements only go so far.  We both have systems capable of a
very high degree of resolution and musicality and you can definitely hear any change made, be it an
interconnect, speaker cable or power cord.

Mind you, it's not always a HUGE, jaw dropping experience, but if you have a system with
excellent resolution and decent recordings it becomes pretty easy.

Yet to date, no one has been able to demonstrate this to be the case when the identity of the cables being compared are unknown to the listener.

That's not to say there can't possibly be any actual audible differences, but one would think that something that's claimed to be pretty easy would have been demonstrated in the over 20 years this debate has been going on.

se

[Summer]

It's already been done, the test results have been in for years, by Gordon Gow, the President of McIntosh and Roger Russell at McIntosh, Dunlevy and numerous others.  Don’t these people have any value in this debate? Double Blind testing has been done numerous times, look at these ABX test (see link below).  That’s pretty good equipment used here.

Maybe a cable and power cord manufacturer will weigh in and end the debate with some great test results of their product?  Maybe they can, maybe some of you can, I am just as open to a new development,but for a couple grand on cables or a power cord there has to be something out there that can show the opposite of what has been proved in test to date.

Do you have an idea of the markup on this part of the audio industry? Highest!

Just reference one, done to the degree like Roger Russell, Gordon Gow (both audio engineers and careers with perhaps the best United States audio company ever, McIntosh). Just one solid test where audio listeners, yes audiophiles, could hear a difference in cables and power cords?
Yes, you can always says "I hear it" and "my wife even says she can hear it", then if you do, great, enjoy it, but the test scores don't prove it.  To me and only me and don't take this personally or as an attack on you, or anyone on this forum, it is like a fan in the seats telling a great baseball manager like Joe Torre, Mike Scioscia, Sparky Anderson, Tom Kelly, Whitey Herzog and Tommy Lasorda how to manage a baseball game.  Everyone here loves their audio equipment (like a fan loves a team), that’s great, to each their own, but sometimes just cause you paid more, you didn’t get more.


http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm


“Many go to Church, but few will understand”

Out

[TONEPUB]

Dude,

I think everyone just likes to argue about it....

When I plugged your cables into my 2nd system, I heard a diff. immediately...

I say if you can't hear the difference between cables, that's ok.
You are probably better off for it!  More money to spend on records.

All of this is subjective in the end and honestly, I really don't care what
anyone hears, doesn't hear or likes to wax poetic about.

What I do know is that at the end of the day I am 99% happy with my
system and I can't afford that last percent.

If you are sitting on the couch digging the music, that's ALL that matters.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  And bah humbug to those that
want to spoil your party, I say.

My lifes half over, I have better things to do than argue about cables.

But I REALLY like yours, for whatever that's worth!!

[TONEPUB]

Do you have an idea of the markup on this part of the audio industry? Highest!

I do agree with you there, to a point.  It also depends on what you categorize as expensive....

We have always been reluctant to review any of the super expensive cables, because I
just can't tell someone with a straight face that a 10 thousand dollar interconnect is
going to improve their system that much.

I'm always dissapointed at how many people will spend thousands on cable when their room
is not treated at all....

I try to tell people that at best the really good cable will only make a modest difference
in their system, AFTER they have the rest of the gear set up to the best of their abilities
and budget.

Can't tell you how many peoples (dreadful) systems I've heard where they have thousand
dollar power cords hooked up to a 1200 dollar integrated amp and a 1500 dollar pair of
speakers....

I still firmly belive the cables can sound different and do make a difference, but I like
to see them as the last layer of icing on the cake...

And even then only with some prudence!

[Steve Eddy]

I think everyone just likes to argue about it....

I'm sure some do. But since the issue has yet to be resolved, there is plenty of room to argue by those who don't simply like to argue.

When I plugged your cables into my 2nd system, I heard a diff. immediately...

I'm sure you perceived a difference, just as I have myself. But simply subjectively perceiving a difference does not necessarily mean one actually heard a difference, in the sense of an actual audible difference.

I say if you can't hear the difference between cables, that's ok.

I haven't said I can't hear a difference. I can't say that because I simply don't know if the subjective differences I have perceived are due to actual audible differences.

All of this is subjective in the end and honestly, I really don't care what
anyone hears, doesn't hear or likes to wax poetic about.

That's pretty much how I look at it. At the end of the day I don't really care exactly why I may perceive what I perceive. I only care about my own personal pleasure and enjoyment.

However it seems many aren't comfortable with that and feel they must strongly assert that there are in fact actual audible differences in spite of the fact that this has yet to be conclusively demonstrated. Or vice versa for that matter.

What I do know is that at the end of the day I am 99% happy with my
system and I can't afford that last percent.

If you are sitting on the couch digging the music, that's ALL that matters.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  And bah humbug to those that
want to spoil your party, I say.

Works for me.

My lifes half over, I have better things to do than argue about cables.

Yet here you are, arguing about cables.

But I REALLY like yours, for whatever that's worth!!

Thank you, Jeff. And I really like you and your publication, for whatever that's worth.

And speaking of your publication, I wanted to talk to you about something relating to it. Are you back home now?

se

[Steve Eddy]

I'm always dissapointed at how many people will spend thousands on cable when their room
is not treated at all....

Hey, now there's an opportunity for someone. Combine room treatment in the cables!

se

[DaveC113]

How about the fact that that people hear the same differences, described in some detail, when comparing different cables, power sources, etc.. ?  This can't all be accounted for by the fact that people read reviews and want to hear the same thing as the reviewer. I've heard differences in cables and only later have read about another person's experiences being similar to mine. While this isn't proof, it is an indication that there could be audible differences.

I was actually surprised to hear that cable nay-sayers actually exist, they must be halfway deaf 

[AJinFLA]

Who would be gullible enough to spend thousands on wires when a much better improvement to your sound system can be made with a phone call?
Now those Sason Granites are a ridiculous bargain at $12k ($7.9k?) for the worlds best speakers. In the form of a 6.5" 2 way ported box, with free energy no less. Cool. Very New Age.

cheers,

AJ

[Marbles]

Ehider uses Greg Straley Reality cables..they are very reasonably priced for the performance.

Those Sason speakers are expensive for a 2 way, but they are about the only speakers that would even get me to think about replacing my Salk HT3's.  Too bad my room isn't as nice as Ehiders or I would have a pair.

Unless you can hear a pair properly set up in the best room I've seen and heard a system in (ehiders), it's hard to explain how good they are.  Think of high def imaging when all other systems are 480i.   

[AJinFLA]

I was actually surprised to hear that cable nay-sayers actually exist, they must be halfway deaf 

I agree 100% Dave. These are the same folks who can't hear the differences with photos in the fridge and shakti stones, etc.
Just because they are too deaf to hear anything, they want to imply that you and I can't "hear it" either. Pretty absurd huh?

cheers,

AJ

[DaveC113]

I was actually surprised to hear that cable nay-sayers actually exist, they must be halfway deaf 

I agree 100% Dave. These are the same folks who can't hear the differences with photos in the fridge and shakti stones, etc.
Just because they are too deaf to hear anything, they want to imply that you and I can't "hear it" either. Pretty absurd huh?

cheers,

AJ

As long as your not saying that's what I think, then OK... I've got to draw the line somewhere.    I'd guess the majority people that can hear differences in cables don't believe that stuff makes a difference. Maybe if you wrap your ICs in shakti stones  aa


Edit: conversely, do the cable nay-sayers also believe all amplifier sound the same? I guess all speakers do too. Its just silly to spend more than $50 for a boombox at Wal Mart

[AJinFLA]

Ehider uses Greg Straley Reality cables..they are very reasonably priced for the performance.

That's good to know. Thanks.

Those Sason speakers are expensive for a 2 way, but they are about the only speakers that would even get me to think about replacing my Salk HT3's.  Too bad my room isn't as nice as Ehiders or I would have a pair.

That's an incredibly high standard. A 3 way ported box correct?

Unless you can hear a pair properly set up in the best room I've seen and heard a system in (ehiders), it's hard to explain how good they are.  Think of high def imaging when all other systems are 480i.   

I can hardly imagine. I mean, a 2 way rear ported box with the drivers vertically about 1 wavelength apart on a flat baffle is an incredibly rare bird indeed. Especially with that "free energy" reflecting back from the brick oven enclosure right through that paper thin 132mmish cone - with about 214cm2 volume displacement at xmax?
Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine what that sounds like. 480p eh? My, those cables must work wonders in that room where those monopoles radiate.

cheers,

AJ

[Steve Eddy]

How about the fact that that people hear the same differences, described in some detail, when comparing different cables, power sources, etc.. ?  This can't all be accounted for by the fact that people read reviews and want to hear the same thing as the reviewer.

Whoa. Back up there a bit. When was this fact established?

I've heard differences in cables and only later have read about another person's experiences being similar to mine. While this isn't proof, it is an indication that there could be audible differences.

Could be. Could be not.

I was actually surprised to hear that cable nay-sayers actually exist, they must be halfway deaf 

Now that's not very nice. Why must they necessarily be halfway deaf?

Let me ask you something. Have you tried placing photographs of yourself in your freezer? If not, why not?

se

[DaveC113]

Whoa. Back up there a bit. When was this fact established?

Ok, I'll rephrase that. Lets replace "the fact that" with "I have read" etc... unless there is a big conspiracy here, its a fact to me.

Now that's not very nice. Why must they necessarily be halfway deaf?

I just call 'em as I see 'em... or hear 'em 

Let me ask you something. Have you tried placing photographs of yourself in your freezer? If not, why not?

Because I'm a stupid-s#$t-nay-sayer 


ps. have you ever tried wearing a foil hat? How do you know it doesn't block the mind-control waves if you haven't even TRIED it?