[PhilNYC]

Or maybe monoblock doesnt matter.... Where do I start looking?
These will drive the Merlins and possibly some SPTech Timepiece 3.0s
Mike aa
OOps: About 5K for the budget.
Thanks!!

If you're coming to the August Rave, I can ask my Cayin distributor to bring a pair of Cayin 860 EL34-based monoblocks for you to hear...

[Double Ugly]

Jim, nope .

Mike has his speakers placed on a 17' wall firing across a 12' wide space. ( he never said how far apart the speakers were; left to right ). The sound is likely 'slapping' against the back wall and back to the front...like ping-pong . All I am saying is, that 12' front to back doesn't allow any space for bass waves to go; hence his 'problem'.

WEEZ

Sorry... I misunderstood the use of "span" in this context.  Guess I should've read back to refresh my memory.

My response still goes (depends on options), but you're dead right about the bass having no where to go.  Well, I suppose that isn't really true if you include 'right back at you.'   

What distance is required for a 30Hz signal to fully propagate anyway?  Is it half-way there @ 12'?

[WEEZ]

Only about a third.

WEEZ

[mcullinan]

So I would need a room that is 36 feet in length to propagate 30hz sound waves?

Id say the speakers are 7 and a half feet apart... Its a bloody mess up in this house, a bloody mess...
If I angle the speakers in wont the deflections move out across the longer length of the room. Would that help?

So treatments are the best route , yes? Is everyone in disagreement. Good. hehe.
Then a better matching amp? Or ousting those finicky Merlins?
BTW... I do find that playing my system at lower levels, the sound is much more pleasant (like off(a joke)), probably from less wall bouncing?
Ive gone from audiophile to audiophool.
Hmm... Well Ima gonna fix it.
Now if I tear out all the walls and just leave the roof?
Mike aa

[AudioFanKJ]

I have owned a few of the amps that have already been mentioned.  As far as tube amps go, I have owned the following for extended period of times-

Sonic Frontiers SFS-80
Music Reference RM-9
Cary SLM-100 monoblocks
Quicksilver V4 monoblocks
Prima Luna Prologue Seven monoblocks
Dodd Audio 120 Monoblocks version 3

There may have been another one or two I am not recalling at this moment.
On the solid state front I have owned-

Sonographe 250
Bryston 4B
McCormack DNA-1 Dlx
McCormack DNA-2 Dlx
H2o Signature monoblocks

Of all of the amps I have owned, the Dodd Audio 120 monoblocks and the H2o Signature monoblocks have performed in another class above their price point.  The McCormack would rank behind them - but not as close to the two for absolute performance for the price of admission.

[DSK]

So I would need a room that is 36 feet in length to propagate 30hz sound waves? ...

Wasn't this 'theory' disproved by the car audio crowd?

[rpf]

Angling the speakers in should help and room treatments are a must.

As far as amps go, I can suggest the Quad II Classic and the Dodd Mono 50s. I own both and find them much better than the CJ MV 60 (and SE), and Quicksilver Mono 100s I had previously.

I haven't had a chance to fully break in the Dodds ($3600 list) yet but they are impressive.

The Quad IIs ($2700 list, selling new on A'gon for $1890) have amazed me. Clarity, transparency, resolution, tonal accuracy, imaging, soundstaging, and frequency extension and neutrality are all there in spades. Although they're only 15 wpc they have a very high peak output (the original Quad IIs were measured at 600 w peak output - for only a millisecond of course) and in my approximately 11' x 23' room drive my 87db efficient, 8 ohm nominal, 4 ohm minimum spkrs. well. They sound more dynamic, in fact, than the 60 wpc CJ.
The KT 66s are Valve Arts and apparently very good. The Sovtek GZ 34 and EF86s can be substantially improved upon.

Good luck,
Rob

[Imperial]

So I would need a room that is 36 feet in length to propagate 30hz sound waves? ...

Wasn't this 'theory' disproved by the car audio crowd?

Yup.  They evidently did it.

And... Mcullinan could maybe take his room issue up in the acoustics thread, if that indeed is a problem.
Then go looking for amps, if that indeed is what is needed.

Merlins have two different filters... depending on a tube amp to be used, or a solidstate, this is for optimum result. They differ slighty. And give the amp also different caracteristic loads to drive. I belive.
Worth looking into. This used to be clearly written on Palcovics page, but now its more of a chore figuring out what youve got for s speaker with all of the x,m and e's floating all over the place! Not to mention Wham and Bam and Tube Bam and thank you's...
I've not got the complete oversight on all of those options, that is for sure!
But getting a Merlin to really sing does require some effort, and a bit of a learning curve as I understand it.
It is also worth the effort I believe...
I'm beginning to agree with Weez here... evidently..
I can of course suggest an amp: http://www.rauna.com/slides/candelajpg.html
Its from Sweden... And it is a great amp!

Imperial

[WEEZ]

I want to clear up a few things here, so as to not be mis-understood; mis-interpreted; or otherwise.

Further down, Mike started a thread "System Sound Overwhelms With Many Intruments". In that thread (aside from suggestions for tube rolling and/or changing amps) it was suggested (and rightly so, IMO) that essentially the speakers were/are overloading the room. And (2) ways to help that stuation were: 1) position the speakers on the short wall firing in the 17' direction; and/or 2) treat the wall with some absorption. It was hinted at in that thread that maybe the Nuforce amps weren't a good match for the Merlin speakers. While that is likely true...that seemed to be what started 'this' thread.

All I am/was (and others) trying to do is to point out that swapping amps and/or speakers isn't going to solve Mike's problem. While it will 'change' the sound; it won't help a placement/room problem that will exist irregardless. So, Mike, if you can't/won't try to get at the problem....fine. Just be aware, that different gear won't solve it. Especially, if you use speakers with even more bass energy than what you have now.

Ethan Winer just posted this link in response to another question (in another thread) concerning rooms and placement. It is fitting in your instance even more so, as your room is smaller than the other poster:

www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

If room treatments or re-arranging the room is out of the question; then a third option might be to use speakers with less bass energy.

WEEZ

p.s. Good luck. I trust you will not take my comments the wrong way. If you did, or have; I am sorry to be so candid

[mcullinan]

I want to clear up a few things here, so as to not be mis-understood; mis-interpreted; or otherwise.

Further down, Mike started a thread "System Sound Overwhelms With Many Intruments". In that thread (aside from suggestions for tube rolling and/or changing amps) it was suggested (and rightly so, IMO) that essentially the speakers were/are overloading the room. And (2) ways to help that stuation were: 1) position the speakers on the short wall firing in the 17' direction; and/or 2) treat the wall with some absorption. It was hinted at in that thread that maybe the Nuforce amps weren't a good match for the Merlin speakers. While that is likely true...that seemed to be what started 'this' thread.

All I am/was (and others) trying to do is to point out that swapping amps and/or speakers isn't going to solve Mike's problem. While it will 'change' the sound; it won't help a placement/room problem that will exists irregardless. So, Mike, if you can't/won't try to get at the problem....fine. Just be aware, that different gear won't solve it. Especially, if you use speakers with even more bass energy than what you have now.
I think when I go to the September Audio Rave it will be an eye opening experience. Perhaps I will bring my Nuforces and see what kind of results I get,.
Mike

Ethan Winer just posted this link in response to another question (in another thread) concerning rooms and placement. It is fitting in your instance even more so, as your room is smaller than the other poster:

www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

If room treatments or re-arranging the room is out of the question; then a third option might be to use speakers with less bass energy.

WEEZ

p.s. Good luck. I trust you will not take my comments the wrong way. If you did, or have; I am sorry to be so candid

I didnt. I appreciate the help. I will check out the realtraps, though Im sure the wife will give me crap about it...what are they etc etc..
I did have a good balance in my system once, with the Nuforce, though they were drivingMonitor Audio Silver RS6s. Also since then I obtained a new preamp, the Odyssey Candela plus the Zu Cables. So I tried getting some better equipment and ended up with an inferior sound, at least until I get the kinks out.
Thanks again.
Mike  aa

[WEEZ]

Mike, the link deals primarily with placement, not traps.

[jon_010101]

So I would need a room that is 36 feet in length to propagate 30hz sound waves? ...

Wasn't this 'theory' disproved by the car audio crowd?

The wave doesn't need to propagate -- you still can detect it in the near-field as a pressure perturbation in the room.  It's considered a trapped wave below the cut-off frequency (therefore, it's evanescent and doesn't persist as stored energy like a standing wave mode).  A relevant link.

[mcullinan]

Ima layman, aka big dummy, after all all I do for a living is make pretty pictures! Design.

Whats it all mean in English.
Mike

[jon_010101]

Ima layman, aka big dummy, after all all I do for a living is make pretty pictures! Design.

Whats it all mean in English.
Mike

Basically, the wavelength is too big to fit entirely in the room, and too big to get "trapped" (like an annoying bass mode), but you can still feel it / hear it as it attempts to bounce around.   

[richidoo]

Mike, corner trapping with traditional bass traps should help, but it is not always able to fix it. EQ like behringer or tact, or tuned freq traps like RPG or homemade may be more effective than broadband if it persists after adding a few thick FG bass traps. But broadband absorption is ideal because it reduces ringing of all bass freqs, increasing bass clarity. You can find an interference peak for any freq in the room, so best to reduce ringing of all bass freqs with broadband, but this can be a tall order because low freqs don't give up easily and broadband absorption is not as efficient at single freqs, except maybe GIKs mondo at 80Hz (wow!) A tuned trap can be better at plucking out a problem freq created by parallel walls.

6" thick FG panels in the corners close to the speaker (like floor/wall right next to the speakers) might be worth a try, but there's never any guarantees, you just gotta try to know for sure. Best to borrow some if you can. You might need 8 or more to hear a difference in a stubborn specific freq. Sometimes that's not enough either. Hopefully yours will be easy to fix. There's always EQ as a compromise solution, and that has great WAF!

Bass freqs from a box speaker propagate as spherical waves in all directions, so pointing them makes no difference. Placement also does not change the rooms freq response on the whole, but it will move the peaks and nulls around, maybe out of your listening spot. But those freqs corresponding to your room dimensions will still be resonating, even if level response is flat at your spot. Ringing smears bass response so it has to be damped, just like mids to be able to hear the clarity of a good system. realtraps.com has this explained much better.

Acoustics are like the "sound barrier", you never knew the problem existed until your high clarity system revealed it. After you know about it and hear the bad effects from it, you realize it is difficult but essential to get through it! The timepieces are very efficient at low freqs so they stir the room easily. You're not the only one trying to come to terms with that mighty TP bass.  Hope this helps!!
Rich

edit: Like the TPs, the Nuforce are awesome in the bass freqs, so no problems there. New amps won't help unles they have lousy bass response, but that would be no fun!

[zeke]

I would go with VTL monos. I've had mb100's and mb175's, and they were both great, but there are lots of good choices out there !

zeke

[sac8d4]

maybe give the Moscode 401 Tube hybrid  amplifer an audition. Its a stereo amp if you aren't familiar with but worth considering for your speakers and budget

[Freo-1]

Music Reference and Quicksilver are both good choices. You want to deal with someone who will be around 5-10 years down the track, high quality, simple, and reliable.  There were a lot overbuilt tube gear out there who are no longer in business, and is very difficult to get serviced.