[JLM]

I think audiophile insanity started when someone thought that a cone woofer and a dome (or horn loaded) tweeter could sound the same near the crossover frequency.     (Safe bet that more single driver owners have heard a wide variety of multiple driver designs than the opposite.  And I've heard more bad examples of multiple driver designs than single driver designs.)

The next step in audiophile insanity occured when marketers convinced rank and file audiophiles that 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 110 dB is more important than natural coherency and realistic (point source) imaging.  Or was it earlier when active speakers were replaced with passive designs?  (Two more stupid concepts IMO.)

BTW has anyone ever seriously mistaken what comes out of their system for live/unamped music?  So what's all this high-end audio stuff about then anyway?     If there was a speaker/system that really could be mistaken for the real thing, we'd all go buy it and end the entire audio hobby.  So there is no perfect speaker, just choose your perferred parameters (hopefully wisely).

BTW macrojack, the Fostex F200A driver does 30 - 20,000 Hz raw, its just less efficient than the Zu (and can be bought for $400 each).

[macrojack]

DGO - If a car can go from standing still to 100 mph without shifting gears, it has an advantage over a car that needs a transmission, no matter how smooth the transmission or how used to shifting you have become.

There was a time when it was unrealistic for people to think about flying. Now it's just inconvenient. In fact, I was once told by an airline pilot friend that helicopters can't fly because they defy all principles of flight. Don't close your mind so fast and so hard. You do not know what you are talking about. How do you explain the broad range achieved by planar speakers? Is it because they have a lightweight, large surface, short excursion driver like Zu uses? Big motor. Very fast. Short throw. Why not?

I've heard rave praises about vintage speakers like the original Large Advents. They were a two-way with, I think, a 12 inch driver. Where was the crossover point? Certainly they had to operate with a rather full range assignment. For years I've been hearing from people about how they prefer 2-way designs over 3-ways. Don't you think that is because of the crossover? Isn't that why so many now are forsaking extended bandwidth in a trade for greater coherence in a single driver crossoverless design.

I'm not saying that crossovers are bad. They are not poison. They won't hurt you or your children. It is just plain preferable to avoid their use if you can. If you are stuck in the past and absolutely refuse to consider another option, you will not suffer any ill as a consequence. Go on as you are.

[T37]

In response to the linearay quetion. I know nothing about them.Whether they will intergrate with the gear I have coming.

When looking at the Gallery pic's I see them pair with rather exotic set ups out side my range. But it is something to ponder

[macrojack]

JLM - Sorry if I got carried away there. I'm zealous cause I'm Zuish.

I started out by suggesting the Druid as something to look into in the price range. When the detractors started, I responded.

I don't know that the Zu full range driver is or isn't the best example of its genre but I know that it does what I said it does. If the Fostex is better, then our poster should consider it as well. Do they require a cabinet or are they useable in an OB setup?

[BrianM]

I started out by suggesting the Druid as something to look into in the price range. When the detractors started, I responded.

I doubt anyone here considers himself a Zu "detractor."  The single vs. multiple driver issue will live on, and greatly enhances the fascination of hifi reproduction.  Engineers are working all the time on different ways to skin the cat.  And Zus, because of their single driver approach, are near the top of my list of speakers I'd like to hear but haven't yet.

I've certainly gained newfound appreciation for a 2-way designs with the Ellis 1801s.  There is no doubt much to what you're saying about minimizing crossover impact; I don't think anyone disagrees with that.  But: the 1801s wouldn't be as good as they are from mid to high if the art of designing crossovers hadn't developed into something very refined.  I believe when it is done well and with the right drivers it can be virtually undetectable.  I'm certainly not especially aware of the crossover between the W18 and the 0W1 tweeter in the 1801s.  Or rather, not at all aware.  Maybe Dennis is because that's what he does all day, but he's covered his tracks pretty darn well.

[Dan Driscoll]

I've never heard they Song Towers, so I can't comment on them. I should also note that I love transmission line speakers, I own a pair of Bud Fried Betas and they are fantastic. But I voted for the Vandys, because in that price range I simply have never heard a better true full range speaker. FWIW, I do not consider any single driver design to be truly full range.

The Vandy is the classic here, the historic variants are highly available used and at good prices, check audiogon.com.  Love the 6 dB/octave crossovers and stepped baffle, but don't like 2 crossovers or the passive radiator.

The Vandy does not have a passive radiator, all of the drivers are actively driven.

[BrianM]

That is, these days I feel a good 2-way should get you 90% of the way toward a good 3-way, for a LOT less money.  *Especially* if you purchase direct.  I used to have a heavy duty 3-way speaker in the Revel F30s (~$3800) -- not a slouch performer -- and the 1801s (~$1500, or half that if you build them yourself) vanquish them, except of course for the deep bass.  In fact, though, in my room the bass of the 1801s is actually MORE satisfying because it isn't boomy; and that fact should apply to many many people who have smaller listening rooms but feel they want/need big speakers.  If there were a single driver speaker in the same price range as the 1801s (or SongTowers) I'd be all over auditioning it, but the tricky technology of a company like Zu seems to come at a premium.

[macrojack]

BrianM - You can consider yourself a Zu detractor if you find yourself making stupid comments like:

If there were a single driver speaker in the same price range as the 1801s (or SongTowers) I'd be all over auditioning it, but the tricky technology of a company like Zu seems to come at a premium.

Zu technology isn't tricky at all but it is refined and in the world of high end audio, $2800/pr. for full range floorstanders isn't very premium. As I pointed out to the original poster, you can find them for less than $2000/pr. on Audiogon and there are other single driver options you can investigate if you are sincere in your interest.

I think you might do well to check out Omega if you need to stay under $2 grand. I have no personal experience with them but the praise from on high that they have been receiving consistently for years suggests that there is something exceptional being offered there.

By the way, while the Druid is 101 db efficient, it's roots are in pro audio. It can handle 300 watts without damage and play loud enough without breakup to end your listening career. They are way more speaker than most of you are imagining. They are very good for nearfield listening but they can do well in a rather large space. That's why I used the term versatile earlier. The other area of versatility lies in amplifier compatibility. Many people drive them with Single Ended Triodes putting out as little as 2 watts per channel. They sing sweetly or rock as hard as anything.

[BrianM]

Jack:

I'm not in need of new speakers, but I do appreciate your enthusiasm for the Zu's.

$2800, by my reckoning, is a $1300 premium over $1500. Where I come from, that's not a "stupid" comment.  You're right, one could find them used for less (the same would tend to go for any speaker), provided one were content to wait on the seller's convenience.

[Daygloworange]

If you are stuck in the past and absolutely refuse to consider another option, you will not suffer any ill as a consequence. Go on as you are.

Do I sense a tone of indignation in you macrojack? I'm not telling you where to go, just merely countering your theory on why single driver speakers are superior.

I've heard the Omega's, and they don't help your arguement as being superior to multiway speakers. I've heard Open baffle Visaton's as well, and single driver Lowther based transmission lines, LothX crossoverless designs, as well as Adire fullrangers. I've heard Fostex based folded horn, and transmission line designs as well.

The reasons I cite are simple to understand even for the layman. A cone type driver has mass, motor limitations, cone breakups, surround limitations that hamper it's ability to multitask (ie: reproduce a 40Hz wave while trying to vibrate at 12,000 cycles a second at the same time, a very simple example) These are very real and often severe limitations. I don't see how my thinking on this is me being stuck in the past. Quite the contrary, it's with the vast amount of knowledge I've gained that I've learned how serious these factors limit single driver speakers.

Does that mean that you shouldn't be able to enjoy your speakers? Never implied anything of the sort. BUT! When I listen to playback of a drum kit that's been well recorded with a pair of large diaphram condensor microphones in a nice stereo configuration in my 4 way speakers and feel every bit the visceral impact of being in the same room with the kit, versus listening to the playback on my 2 way near fields, or 2 way transmission lines, or one way single drivers. There's no doubt in my mind as to which constitutes better, more realistic playback.

I plan on attending RMAF this year. If I have the time, I'll prepare some 16 bit digitally recorded test tracks that are full bandwidth, uncompressed (dynamically) recordings on CD. Stuff from my studio. Ambient drum kits, acoustic guitars, electric guitars. I'd like to go room to room and play it on many systems as I can, you'd be more than welcome to tag along. I'm far from having a totally formulated opinion on all things audio. Could be fun and eye opening.

Oh, and you can leave the Kevlar flak jacket in your hotel room.  

Cheers

 

[Marbles]

Any chance I could get a copy of that CD when you make it?  Be happy to send you some $$.

[Marbles]

Macrojack, congrats on selling your Zu speakers....

[macrojack]

DGO - I'll buy one too. In fact, set up a booth and sell them. Or advertise on here. If the price is O.K. I'm sure you could sell a couple hundred.

I've marveled many times at how the hell a driver can produce any frequency intelligibly much less many at one time. They do though. And I listen in wonder.

The heat is on. I'm going to have to get over there for at least a day. If I left here early enough Sat. A.M. I could hit the Tech Center by 10:30 or 11:00 if nothing weird happens on I-70. Delays are not unusual, especially during snow season which is basically anytime except June, July and August, and alternate routes do not exist in the Central Mountains.

Still, I would be ashamed not to show my face so I'll try to work this past my wife somehow. Naturally she cannot understand my interest in this stuff. She gardens and sews.

[Daygloworange]

Any chance I could get a copy of that CD when you make it?  Be happy to send you some $$.

I'd have to look into what the cost would be in making duplicates. Yeah, I've got no problem in making copies for anyone who wants one. Just need to find the time is all. I've heard some of the Burmester CD's and so forth that claim to have great drum sounds, and I'm tellin' you, they suck. The ones I've heard are isolated (ie: individually close miked drum kits) that don't come close to what you can make a drum kit sound like. And they are compressed and Eq'd as if they were ready to be mixed for a song.

These will not be anything of the sort. These will be as true to real life sounding 2channel ambient recordings as I can make them. And will have none of the limitations and compromises of a pop recording.

I'd also document and photograph the recording setup, as well as do simulation experiments that will tell you were a sound should be in your soundstage, by moving sound sources against a constant mic source. For example. Stand right in front of a pair of stereo mics playing sharp percussive instruments, then move 5 feet back, 10 feet back, 2 feet to the right, 8 feet to the right....you get the idea. Sharp percussion strikes are fantastic for localizing and imaging cues.

I'll make an announcement on AudioCircle when I eventually find the time, no worries. Just don't know if I can get to it for RMAF.

Cheers

[Daygloworange]

Yeah macrojack, if you're local to the area, c'mon out man. It'll be fun.

Cheers

[macrojack]

Marbles - Thank You.

I have seen a copy of a bank transfer from Norway that I can only partially read but the prognosis is good.

I thought that there would be rejoicing in the land when these were claimed.

[macrojack]

DGO - Local? It's 275 miles over the Rocky Mts. I think I have to elevate to 11,000 feet to get there --- without leaving the ground.
I think there was a really nasty, airport closing blizzard last year on the day after I would have made the trip.

[lonewolfny42]

Tom....

The heat is on. I'm going to have to get over there for at least a day. If I left here early enough Sat. A.M. I could hit the Tech Center by 10:30 or 11:00 if nothing weird happens on I-70. Delays are not unusual, especially during snow season which is basically anytime except June, July and August, and alternate routes do not exist in the Central Mountains.

I checked Greyhound....from Grand Junction to Denver...advanced ticket runs $37.00 one way....you don't have to drive.

[macrojack]

Chris - How much is the train and when does it run?

[lonewolfny42]

Chris - How much is the train and when does it run?

Its longer and more....$44.00....8 hours...arrives around 8PM.