HElp: System sound overwhelms with many instruments....

mcullinan · « **on:** 3 Aug 2007, 07:13 pm »

On certain recordings the system sounds fine, but multiple instruments can get pushy or forward, maybe even clinical... Can anyone pinpoint what it might be in my system? Or maybe I should reposition the speakers again? Im not sure. My system list is below. Room is 12 x 17 with speakers on long wall about 1 1/2 to 2 ft from wall (Merlins).
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Mike aa

bunky · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 07:57 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 3 Aug 2007, 07:13 pm

On certain recordings the system sounds fine, but multiple instruments can get pushy or forward, maybe even clinical... Can anyone pinpoint what it might be in my system? Or maybe I should reposition the speakers again? Im not sure. My system list is below. Room is 12 x 17 with speakers on long wall about 1 1/2 to 2 ft from wall (Merlins).
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Mike aa

I dont know anything about the sonic Signature of the Nuforce 9 SE V2 amplifiers.The CBS / Hytron 5814 tubes are somewhat forward sounding and the Merlins are supposed to be a very good if somewhat Clinical loudspeaker. i would try several different speaker position changes and maybe roll in a pair of Amperex 7316/ECC186's or another good less forward tube in your preamplifier.thanks....WCW III

mcullinan · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:01 pm »

Thnx Bunky... I will try the Amperex, any other tubes? Mullard?
Mike
Thnx x2

bunky · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:10 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 3 Aug 2007, 08:01 pm

Thnx Bunky... I will try the Amperex, any other tubes? Mullard?
Mike
Thnx x2

i Have a pair of platinum grade Mullard CV4003/12AU7's that i got from Upscale Audio. they are very nice tubes but in my system they are all about the Midrange and tend to be rolled off at the extremes. but they might be the hot ticket in your system.thanks....WCW III

samplesj · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:29 pm »

Not all Mullards are the same. To me the best are the long plate dual getters. I've got some Amperex 12AU7 that I prefered to short plate Mullards, but the long plates were much better.

bunky · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: samplesj on 3 Aug 2007, 08:29 pm

Not all Mullards are the same. To me the best are the long plate dual getters. I've got some Amperex 12AU7 that I prefered to short plate Mullards, but the long plates were much better.

I would not mind trying a pair of the Mullard long plate dual getters. where can i find a pair ? thanks....WCW III

mcullinan · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:51 pm »

Idk... maybe I should just wait and see what the Supratek Sauvignon sounds like...
but its definitely the tubes?
Mike

WEEZ · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 08:52 pm »

Mike, when you say the speakers are 1 1/2 to 2 ft. from the wall; do you mean from the wall to the front of the speaker?

It could be that moving the speakers to the short wall (firing down the 17' dim.) will help. Merlins are better integrated sounding from 9 1/2 ft. back, or slightly more. My guess is, that you are sitting too close...

WEEZ

samplesj · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 09:02 pm »

Quote from: bunky on 3 Aug 2007, 08:47 pm

Quote from: samplesj on 3 Aug 2007, 08:29 pm
Not all Mullards are the same. To me the best are the long plate dual getters. I've got some Amperex 12AU7 that I prefered to short plate Mullards, but the long plates were much better.
I would not mind trying a pair of the Mullard long plate dual getters. where can i find a pair ? thanks....WCW III

Sorry I just looked at mine and they are more like dual support of the square getter. Thats what I get for going from memory.

Something like this ebay item http://cgi.ebay.com/Pr-Mullard-12AU7-ECC82-1957-Long-Plate-Square-Getter_W0QQitemZ300136425052QQihZ020QQcategoryZ67816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

bunky · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 09:17 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 3 Aug 2007, 08:51 pm

Idk... maybe I should just wait and see what the Supratek Sauvignon sounds like...
but its definitely the tubes?
Mike

Mike,the Pre Amp is not the problem Your Preamplifier is a really Sweet one. i suggested rolling tubes because they allow you to fine tune your system.

mfsoa · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 09:24 pm »

Mike,
Your room dimensions are similar to mine and I'm on the long wall also. So I guess your head is pretty close to the back wall. Have you treated it? During complex passages maybe you are getting too much sound bouncing off the wall, with comb filtering. This could be leading to the sense of confusion you are hearing?

I think in general the smaller the room, the closer the boundaries and the greater the benefit from taming the reflections.

Just a guess.

-Mike

bpape · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 09:36 pm »

Treating the room and seat movements (especially if you're right against a wall) can open up things considerably.

For tubes, if you want something still sweet and warm but not quite as 'tubey' as the Mullards (and not as expensive), check out some 50's or early 60's vintage RCA Blackplates.

Bryan

samplesj · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 09:45 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 3 Aug 2007, 09:36 pm

Treating the room and seat movements (especially if you're right against a wall) can open up things considerably.

For tubes, if you want something still sweet and warm but not quite as 'tubey' as the Mullards (and not as expensive), check out some 50's or early 60's vintage RCA Blackplates.

Bryan

Definately treat the room before spending on NOS tubes.

Here is a perfect example why. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone post that they didn't really like acoustic treatment, but tube opinions vary widely. Tube selection is totally subjective.

For example I have a set of 12AU7 RCA blackplates and don't like them at all. They really are fairly cheap for NOS(check PartsConnexion). They are just barely more than new production tubes. But to me they are more tubey than Mullards. Creamy is a good visual descriptor of them for me. They were extra thick and didn't have a good balance at all.

bpape · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 10:03 pm »

Not to get too far off topic but you're exactly right. I'll even go a little farther. I think it also depends on the application. I tried some Mullards in my preamp and found THEM thick and syrupy with no bottom end control and rolled off at the top. The RCA's were considerably tighter and more detailed and almost as lush in the midrange.

If you're going to do the tube route, you definitely have to be willing to try a few different things and see what fits your system, your application, and your taste.

... and far be it from me to reject the idea of treating the room

Bryan

marvda1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 10:13 pm »

you might want to look into rca 5814 triple mica blackplates just as detailed as cbs.hytrons but smoother sounding and not at all expensive. other choices might be:
raytheon 12au7's
brimar 13d5's

BrianM · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 10:41 pm »

You're sitting too close to your speakers, and your speakers are too close to the back wall (the wall behind you when you listen) for optimum sound. Complex sounds need more room to resolve before they start banging against the back wall. I would first try switching them to the short wall. (And you possibly need room treatments.)

The problem you describe isn't going to be magically fixed by different tubes...if that were the case it would mean your equipment was rather poorly designed.

JMO, and good luck.

BrianM · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 10:44 pm »

Not that the long wall isn't best if the room is the right size, but 12 feet width isn't enough to realize that benefit in my experience.

Scott F. · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Aug 2007, 11:38 pm »

Well, I've got a slightly different take on the situation. First, save your money and don't buy the NOS tubes because I doubt seriously that will cure the situation. Try moving your speakers to the 12' wall. That will get you farther away from them (which is a good thing). You will definitely need some sort of room treatments but I'm afraid that still won't help (much).

After you've treated the room, if the sound is still too forward (and I believe it will be), I think you have to look at the amp and speaker pairing. I'm sure that is the last thing you wanted to hear. Merlin's are unforgiving speakers. Now, this isn't a knock against Nuforce but (IMO) that amp is way too forward and clinical sounding for a pair of Merlin's. If you had a pair of slightly relaxed sounding speakers mated to them, it would (likely) sound just fine. I'm afraid its a 'synergy' thing. Sort of like Deadfish running his Altec 19's with his Bryston amp. That pairing would make your ears bleed. He now uses a 300B or a Dynaco to tame the beasts (the Altec's).

BTW, we've got two guys in the GAS group running Merlin's in similar sized rooms. They are running Aronov an VTL amps (both are fully tubed systems) and the Merlin's sound great. Hopefully they will chime in and confirm what I'm saying.

Sturgus? MerRev? Steve K?

hartwerger · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Aug 2007, 04:23 pm »

I don't know your ancillary components, but I own the Merlin VSM-Ms w/ upgraded Bam and the lead free jumpers and power cord for the Bam. I recommend getting the speakers further out from the front wall as others have suggested. I would also recommend experiementing with the toe-in. I know that the Merlins come with alignment tool, but sometimes one's equipment, room and tastes may suggest a different angle than the alignment tool dictates. As for the listening position, its true that Merlin recommends approximately 9 1/2 back for best performance. I cannot tell you why, but that does not work in my room. I have my speakers approx. 6.25' apart and I sit approx 7 1/2' from the speakers. I use a slight toe in. The sound is never forward. I can hear the clinical nature when I move the listening position further back or increase the toe in, but at my current placement, I would not call the sound clinical by any means. On the contrary, the sound is quite seductive. I do use some mild room treatments such as a combination of a Room Tunes Pac and the Eighthnerve Adapt Triangles. What I've noticed most from the use of the treatments is how clean, clear and open the sound became, in addition to being able to play music louder without a sense of strain or harshness. Nonetheless, I don't recall experiencing forwardness or clinical sound before using the treatments so I would suggest experimenting with placement before anything else. Before I had the Merlins, I owned several of the Magnepan line. The Merlins do not have the transparency of the Maggies, but I find them more involving and intoxicating than the Maggies (for me, at least). Merlins have flaws and compromises like any speaker, but they have excellent tonality, nice dynamics, and a wonderfully deep soundstage. Although there are aspects I could complain about, I still find them to be very very enjoyable. Good luck.

System: Merlin VSM-M, Musical Fidelity A5 CD player, Mapletree Audio Design Ultra 4A preamp, Music Reference RM-10 tube amp, Rega P2 turntable w/ RB300 tonearm.

sturgus · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Aug 2007, 07:44 pm »

First get the Merlins off the long wall, and out into the room a bit. I would think they would be 4 to 5 feet from the back wall. You want your listening position around 9' from the speaker. I would use the set up Bobby uses in the owners manual . You will have to play a little with toe in to lock them in. Pay close attention to vertical alignment, and locking your feet in place. This helps with clearing up your image. As Bryan says, once you find the best location for your speakers then start playing with the room treatments. I have never heard the Nu force amps so I can not comment on their sound. What I can say is this the digital amps I have heard on the Merlins, and other speakers sounded flat and two dimensional to me . They also sounded confused with music that was very complex. The problem with the Merlins is they are very revealing of everything up stream from them. Once you have the system where you want it and treatments in place try some different amps and pre-amps. See what you come up with. This is the fun part.
Sturgus