[jackman]

Okay, maybe stunning may be an overstatement, but this one stunned me because it was unexpected.  Also presents me with a dillema (sp?) for some of you wire experts out there.  I had to move my system, which consists of recently upgraded AVA T7 (with tesla tubes and new transformer) and my recently upgraded (new tubes, blah, blah), and as a result, had to disconnect my IC's.  Before I go any further, let me say thanks to Tyson and Cutthroat for recommending the upgrades.  The older AVA stuff was very nice...so nice, many people are sick of hearing me talk/write about it, including my wife...especially my wife.  

Frank and Co. did all of the electronic upgrades within a week (including cleaning all switches, swapping those irritating little star-head screws for good ol' fashion philips heads and changing the feet!) and packed the stuff up in brand spankin' new boxes (much better than my "improvised" boxes that barely made it to Minn...).   The upgrade was a noticeable improvement from the first note (I let things warm up for about fifteen minutes prior to listening).   Everything that I liked about the old Fetvalve stuff, I love about the new T7 and 550EX.  The improvements to the phono preamp and headphone amp were also immediately obvious.  I'll do a more detailed summary when I have other amps in-house to compare the AVA gear with.  That's something I'll save for the colder weather....

Anyway, when I put the IC's back in the system, I accidentally put the DIYcable superlative IC's between the amp and preamp and the Bolder M80's between the DAC (Smart Dio) and the preamp.  At first I wasn't paying attention and didn't fire up the system, however after a day or two  (I was traveling on business), I put on a CD that I hadn't listened to on my main system, Aimee Mann's Lost in Space.  Bass sounded really "big" like the bass on a tube amp and everything sounded very smooth but slightly rolled-off.  At first I thought it was the recording.  I really liked the bass (the Ellis 1801's are not known for deep, sub 40hz bass).  In fact, it was the strongest bass I have ever experienced with my speakers.  Those of you who are in to tube amps know what I'm talking about.  Bass was very deep (for a 6.5 inch woofer) and LARGE sounding.  I quickly put on some jazz CD's, ones that I was very familiar with.  Again, very deep and LARGE sounding bass.  Acoustic bass in Kind of Blue sounded full-bodied and authoritative, however vocals sounded a bit recessed and further back into the mix.  Instruments blended together a bit more than I'm used to and, for a moment, I thought something was wrong with my system.  

I looked at the wires and noticed that I accidentally swapped the M80's from their usual position (between the amp and pre) for the Superlatives, which are usually between the DAC and pre.  The difference was significant, however, I really thought I was missing much of the transparency, detail and depth of the older setup.  I swapped the IC's back to their original position and...voila!!! Everything snapped back in to place.  The "air" between instruments was back, detail was there (in spades) and vocals were perfectly out in front of the mix (not too much!), the way I like it.  Unfortunately, all of these improvements came at the expense of the bass I was getting with the older wires.  

This leads me to a question for all of the wire guru's out there: is there an IC that provides the positive characteristics of both of these fine IC's?  I want the detail and transparency of the M80's with the forgiving nature and strong bass of the Superlatives.  I tried M80's (and ones with silver Eichmann's) between the DAC and the Pre and preferred the Superlatives in this position.  Are there any IC's that provide stronger (yet controlled) bass of the Superlatives, while prividing the positive aspects of the M80's???

Thanks!

Jack

PS-I may hold off any wire auditions until I try the dAck.  Danny's review has me thinking.  The only thing preventing me from getting the dAck outright is the limited play-time.  I have parties at my house and need music playing at all times (while I work, etc.).  Can't live with 4 hour limit...8 hour limit maybe...

[Tyson]

Indeed there is, the Bybee'd Nitro will do just what you want, that's why I have them in my system

If thats out of the price range, the cryo'd nitro gets somewhat close to the bybee'd nitro.

[beat]

I'm no cable expert but..
The venhaus diy silvers seem to fill that role. I've not heard the superlatives but for what it costs to put together a pair of the venhaus design it is not a bad investment of time. I love the bass that they gave me and incredible detail everywhere else. Quite bright at first but they burn in in like a week or so. I used all cardas silver rcas and solder. If you are interested PM me, if you want I can throw some together for you.
cheers

[Hantra]

IMO, the M-80 is a sweet cable, and can hardly be beaten for the money.

When you're ready to go to the next level, I'd recommend auditioning the Audience AU24, and the Jena Labs Trio.  KevinW carries Jena Labs, and they are some sweet cables.  I have to say I greatly prefer the AU24 to any interconnect I have ever tried.  

Are there interconnects that do things better than the AU24?  Yep. . . I have heard interconnects that do certain things better.  But the difference is, they sound like a cable.  If I put in a cable that has better bottom end, or highs than the AU24, it sounds like . . .  I put in a cable.  

Hard to describe, but when you put the AU24 back, it's like . . . You removed a cable.  even though there is one there.  It's a very cool phenomenon, and one that I recommend everyone try out, even if you end up preferring something else.

Like I said, there probably are better cables, but this one has some psychological impact to it that makes me really believe there is no wire there.  Amazing. .

B

[jackman]

Tyson, I tried the Nitro's but my system has changes so much, I should probably give them another shot.  Thanks!

Hantra, I agree regarding the M80's.  They have great detail, but I think my system is capable of more bass and I like the warmth of the Supers.  Lots of people like Jenna Labs.  Hopefully, I can find a local shop that will let me demo some.  Also, those Audience AU24's sound tempting.  I'm afraid to ask what they cost.

Beat, do you know where I can get the silver cables you mention?  

Thanks guys!  Cables do make a difference.  I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars, because I don't think the cost/benefit is worth it, however, I hope to find some that can fill out my sound a bit.  I'm not far off...just need a subtle nudge over the cliff...

Adios,

J

[beat]

J.
The parts came from all over the place, parts express, diycable, the hardware store, my jeweler suppler (another hobby of mine) I'm about to make another set. I could document the procedure if you are a DIYer...or If you wanted I could make you a set. I think alot of what makes this cable successful is the ultra low capacitance gained by forming a helix around a 1/4 inch dielctric. You can see the design and reviews of it at
http://venhaus1.com/ I havent looked around there for a while, he may sell them outright now for all I know.
regards,  beat

[Tyson]

Jman,
The nitro HAS to be cryo'd, or it sounds recessed in the mids.  With the cryo treatment it evens out nicely.  With the bybees, you get even better mids w/the same transparency and slam.

[KevinW]

Hantra, I agree regarding the M80's.  They have great detail, but I think my system is capable of more bass and I like the warmth of the Supers.  Lots of people like Jenna Labs.  Hopefully, I can find a local shop that will let me demo some.  Also, those Audience AU24's sound tempting.  I'm afraid to ask what they cost.

Okay, sounds like it's time to put together a Jena Labs demo pack.  They have great bass, are very transparent, and extremely natural timbre.  I am continually impressed with their ability to transmit music without color, and it's time for the AC community to weigh in with their impressions.  

I'll work out the details tomorrow morning and put up a post on my forum. If Jackman is interested, he's first, especially since he sold me that nice solder sucker.  If anyone else is interested, send me a PM.

[nathanm]

For a good laugh check out the Jena Labs price list sometime.

[KevinW]

For a good laugh check out the Jena Labs price list sometime.

Nathan,
That is just not a fair thing to say.  Jena Labs cables start at $130, which is very reasonable.  Yes, the prices on the higher end cables is high, but there is real engineering backing it up.  Think for a minute how difficult it is to get seven strands of 18ga. wire to terminate cleanly into a single RCA jack.  It takes Jena Labs an entire day to make just one set of Symphony level RCA interconnects (seven strands, $1100/m).  That is a lot of work.  Cables even higher in their line have more strands, which make the dimensional modeling of terminating all those strands exponentially harder.  Jena has now figured out a way to get 27 strands of 18ga. wire into a single RCA jack.  Most other audio designers think she is a crazy genius for doing this. You don't want to know the price of that cable either

One more thing I will say is that Jena Labs cables all have the same sonic signature, from the bottom of the line to the top.  Very neutral, balanced, and musical.  As you move up the line, bass gets tighter, imaging gets more solid, and detail increases, especially micro-detail.  The $1100 Symphony line is a BIG increase in performance over the $330 Trio line, and it damn well better be.

[Mad DOg]

KevinW,

You may want to start your own topic in your circle for demo sign up of the Jena Cables. I wouldn't want folks to construe or misconstrue your posts in this thread as manufacturer advertising which is prohibited except in the Manufacturer's Circles and Market Square. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.

[jackman]

Thanks Kevin.  I was going to give you a call on the Jenna cables.  Please sign me up for the demo.  The lower end versions are within my price range.  Hope the solder sucker is working out for you!  

Jack

[Wayne1]

Jack,

Before you start trying out different cables, you may want to experiment with different tubes in the AVA gear. I know from listening to Tyson's gear that the tubes used will change the sound as much, if not more than the cables.

I suggest you try out the Brimar NOS in the power amp. When Tyson brought over his AVA to try in my system, I felt it was "too tight" and dry in the bottom end. It grabbed hold of the woofers and did not let go. This was using the JJs. He later posted the the Brimar loosened up the bass a bit and was a bit more "musical".

By tube rolling in the preamp you can also change the sound. The current fav out here for the Transcendance 7 is the Siemens.

I think by tube rolling you can get the sound you are looking for with your gear for a lesser amount than the cost of new interconnects. Though, of cource, I am always ready to sell you a pair of Silver Bullet, Cryo'ed, Bybee NITROs when you get you next bonus check

[Tyson]

Jackman,
You don't have Siemens in the T7 yet?  Run, don't walk, to get some Siemens tubes, it is by far the best tue I've tried in the T7 (out of Brimars, ElectroHarmonix, Mullards, JJ's, some others I can't remember right now).  They will change the sound for the better by a lot.  After you get the Siemens, then start trying different cables.

I got the Siemens from:

http://www.tubestore.com/12at7types.html

I'm still trying to find the "perfect" tube for the 550ex, as I've decided the Brimars in the 550ex are too soft sounding when combined with the Siemens in the T7.  I've got Mullards in the 550ex right now and I'm liking the combo a lot, more firm and dynamic than the Brimar's, but still with the nice tube midrange and warmth.

[KevinW]

KevinW,

You may want to start your own topic in your circle for demo sign up of the Jena Cables. I wouldn't want folks to construe or misconstrue your posts in this thread as manufacturer advertising which is prohibited except in the Manufacturer's Circles and Market Square. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.

I think my posts were professional and well within my rights as a manufacturer on the general forum.  Nathan made a disparaging remark about products that I represent on AC as being overpriced, and I responded to that remark with the actual facts that explained how these products are designed for many budgets. I also explained that the higher-end products in the line have real engineering behind their stratospheric price and are not just snake oil.  This is not advertising. It is defending the reputation of the products I sell on the direct points of contention in the thread.

  Now I have to say that it WAS tempting to engage in some subtle advertising after my products had been mentioned.  I could have said anything more about how the Jena Labs kicks the panties off everything else... but restrained because this is a public place and we want to preserve that "G" rating.    And seriously, I respect the spirit of the rules of AC.  I also did specifically say that further discussion of the trial would be done on my forum. Maddog, you must have missed that. Check my first post.

[nathanm]

So my insinuation that they are overpriced is 'disparaging' yet by your own admission they have a "stratospheric price"?  Ahh that's rich.  I love cables vendors, they are a real hoot.

[jackman]

Come on Nathan, give Kevin a break.  He's a good guy who is just trying to start a new company and to help out.  Some of the lower end Jenna wires are in line with other value companies, from a price standpoint.  They do have some mega-expensive stuff that is beyond my budget, but Kevin's suggestions were in the ballpark.  

Also, I love your smartass attitude.  Hopefully, people will understand that you like to be sarcastic and are really a nice guy deep down.  I think

Adios!

Jman

[nathanm]

What would really help is for this absurd cable industry to take a flying leap.  "Real engineered" cables can be purchased for less than a buck a foot thanks very much. "Audiophile marketed" cables on the other hand...well, how should I put this - I think Mr. Van Alstine said it best: "Magic is very expensive, always has been, always will be."

I'm sorry, but a 130 dollar interconnect is not a good value any way you slice it, and the further you go up the more the term "value" gets stretched grossly out of shape (hence the "good laugh" bit - "Looky! We've added another strand! That'll be 400 bucks please...").  I've wired my entire system for the price of the wire hifi vendors strip off the ends!  Build your own folks, stop giving these people your money.  You're paying for hot air and Imagineering.  Buy a spool of wire, braid it, make a good connection and bob's your uncle.  Less filling, sounds great, looks cool.  You should be able to make enough cables for your entire system for the price of one hifi balderdash cable.  There's this notion that since it's a commercial product (ooh!) that it has some special properties not wholly understood by the masses and therefore can command these ridiculous prices.  Sorry folks, it's just wire with a few billion advertising dollars behind it.

Yes, I know Kevin is a good guy, so here: *giving Kevin a break* How's that?

[markC]

Back on topic for a change..... Jman, I agree with Beat about the Chris Vh diy silvers. I had the supperlatives in my rig and once I tried the Chris V's, the Supers were sent to the second system upstairs. The silvers are more livley than the supers with substantially more detail. The bottom end cleaned up a lot over the supers; not more bass, just tighter more defined with way less bloat and boom. Best of all, the material is cheap enough and they're fun to build. You like soldering right? Just my $0.02.

[jackman]

Thanks for the information on the DIY silver wires.  Where did you get the materials?  Also, please forward a link.  I can make stuff (and solder ) but I need detailed instructions.  

Your friendly neighborhood,

Jackman