[Psychicanimal]

Jerry: You just don't seem to ever listen to what I have said about this in the past. It's called Live End Dead End.  ...

What's this live end-dead end shit?

I recall seeing this in the Asylum--remember, Dan?  Jon Risch pointed out that LEDE is not appropriate to home acoustics.

**********

I would like Van Alstine to post his room acoustic theories in the room acoustics forum Rives Audio hosts in the Asylum.  Let's see what happens.

[Marbles]

pyscho, this is not the fight club, and not everything should be expressed in this forum as if it is.

No need to get so agressive.

We are all here to learn or to at least share info.  If you have some info you've learned as to why LEDE is not appropriate in the home please share it.

I don't think you should challange Frank to post his theories in another forum before you even know what his theories are.  Jerry just asked Frank to clarify them.

[Psychicanimal]

pyscho, this is not the fight club, and not everything should be expressed in this forum as if it is.

No need to get so agressive.

We are all here to learn or to at least share info.  If you have some info you've learned as to why LEDE is not appropriate in the home please share it.

I don't think you should challange Frank to post his theories in another forum before you even know what his theories are.  Jerry just asked Frank to clarify them.

I am not being aggressive.  Dan knows what that means--him an I are involved in that particular thread in the Asylum.  If you want to learn, go to the Asylum archives.  I have nothing to teach you.

As for Prof. Van Alstine, how do you know I don't know what his "theories" are?   He's openly pro 100% anechoic.  That's no secret and I have heard it from him in person.

You need to cleanse your mind--really...

[Marbles]

 I have nothing to teach you.

..

Exactly!!!  I could not have said it any better  

[Carlman]

pyscho, this is not the fight club, and not everything should be expressed in this forum as if it is.

It will be moved there if this strays any farther.  There's clearly some strong feelings on room treatment....  this thread's already off topic and I encourage people to flame each other with PM's instead of in the open forum.

[avahifi]

I actually do advocate an anechoic chamber as the ideal that we should strive for in our listening room.

Why?  Because our listening room was not part of the original musical experience, and any reflections, additions, or subtractions our room does is wrong - not part of the enviornment of the original musical recording.

Obviously, the setup requires direct listening to the speakers and and a system that needs no "help" from the room.  Or, if your system won't cut it in a very dead, very large room, its not very good.

Great systems do not sound "dead" in a dead room, they simply sound way too much like "the room" in a live room.  OK if you like that "the room" sound, but then again, the guy on the bus with the boombox turned up to full distort likes that too, he wins, he only spent $29.00.

I noticed in Chicago a year ago that nobody there mentioned how horrible the room sounded, painfully bad to me.  They were only interested on what brand of wire I used and whether the speakers grills should be on.  Oh well.

Frank Van Alstine

[Brian Cheney]

I advocate treating the speaker end of the room with absorbtion to a depth at least several feet in front of the speakers.  This includes floor, back and sides walls, and ceiling.

For the listening end of the room I like diffusion, with many irregular reflective objects and no absorption at all.

The LEDE theory developed by the Davis's back in the 1970's works well in the home (I first heard it at Bert Whyte's house and immediately went home and did my own LEDE).  It's a very accurate environment for listening, if not always the most pleasant.

I do not recommend a completely anechoic environment for listening to reproduced music because the ear is very uncomfortable in such a space.
Besides that, completely anechoic at low frequencies would require a large room with very deep absorbers five to six feet thick including floors and ceiling.

[nathanm]

I recall reading somewhere that there aren't any anechoic chambers existing that are reliable below 100Hz.  Has anyone ever actually been inside one?  I think it would be pretty cool to visit one, although I would doubt this would be desirable for a home environment, not to mention it would be logistically implausible to build.  Four foot thick fiberglass wedges and a high tension wire floor would most likely have a low WAF!

"Dead quiet" I can see, but totally anechoic might be a little freaky.  Theoretically Frank's idea it makes sense, though - the playback space not adding anything to the speakers output.  But not many records are created with very much of the ambience in the recording studio preserved anyway so they might sound subjectively dead flat and dull in an anechoic chamber.  Although, your speakers WOULD perform according to their rated specs for a change!  I would think it might be a case of true theoretical accuracy in sound reproduction being not at all pleasant or natural sounding.  But hey, I could be wrong.  I am not sure of any anechoic chambers around here though.  Probably would have to pay big bucks to rent one I'd imagine.

[Guan]

Wouldn't a piece of equipment that sounds lively and energetic in an anechoic chamber sound TOO lively and unbearably bright in a normal room?  

Just my thoughts...

[Hantra]

Check this out. . .  

Have any of you ever been in an anechoic chamber?  I have, and I can tell you one thing. . .

Take a CD into an anechoic chamber.  Any CD. . .  Play it. .

Then take the same CD into a decently treated room that isn't DEAD.  Which sounds more like real music?  

End of story.  

Anechoic chambers are great for testing certain things, but not for listening.  Unless you DON'T like real music. . .  And that is the case with many audiophiles. .

B

[MaxCast]

As someone hit on earlier....we are at the mercy of the recording.  And this is not to blame the recording either....at least not all the time.

Some recordings are done live, in a small theater type building, or studio.  I'm sure many of us can tell this in the music we listen to.  I believe each will sound different in a heavy dampened room or a live room.  Therefore we can't set our room optimaly.  Then add in any reverb that may be thrown in.

I am a firm believer in room treatments, but  I have also enjoyed some recordings, and even prefer them, in a livelier room.  It still amazes me all the pictures of equipment and systems on these boards that have squat for treatments.

So I guess we can please our ears some of the time, but not all of the time.

[Dan Banquer]

"It still amazes me all the pictures of equipment and systems on these boards that have squat for treatments. "
Your not the only one, or maybe I should say I'm appalled.

[JohnR]

Oh what a crock. There was a huge bloody thread on room treatment!

[Psychicanimal]

I actually do advocate an anechoic chamber as the ideal that we should strive for in our listening room.

Why?  Because our listening room was not part of the original musical experience, and any reflections, additions, or subtractions our room does is wrong - not part of the enviornment of the original musical recording.

Obviously, the setup requires direct listening to the speakers and and a system that needs no "help" from the room.  Or, if your system won't cut it in a very dead, very large room, i ...

Does that mean that Bose speakers can't be used?  

Seriously, I did go to your demo in Chicago with the sole intention of listening to your hybrid amp.  I have never been there ever again.  The musical selections were not my style and definitely wanting in rhythm.  Now, using lamp cord doesn't cut it.  I ran into someone from the audio society a few days later at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Shaumburg and we had lunch toghether (Brian Walsh?).  He said the night before your equipment was rigged with Mapleshade Helix speaker wire and that the sound was much improved.

Check this out. . .  

Have any of you ever been in an anechoic chamber?  I have, and I can tell you one thing. . .

Take a CD into an anechoic chamber.  Any CD. . .  Play it. .

Then take the same CD into a decently treated room that isn't DEAD.  Which sounds more like real music?  

End of story.  

Anechoic chambers are great for testing certain things, but not for listening.  Unless you DON'T like real music. . .  And that is the case with many audiophiles. .

B

I plan to drive to NJ sometime next week to visit my sister and have my 1200 fitted with the KAB outboard power supply.  Kevin lives some 45 mins from my sister.  He's an advocate of anechoic listening rooms and has designed and built his own horn loaded speakers.  Like Van Alstine, he says that the room must not add to the music.  He's the one that says "What's this live end-dead end shit?"  I should get a chance to bring along some of my LPs and CDs and have a first hand experience--and using a fully modded 1200!

[audiojerry]

Hey Psychic and Jman,
Please be cool.  If you have a dispute with each other, try pm'ing or taking it to the fight club.

I appreciate the honest and civil reply from avahifi. And thanks to Brian C. for offering his views on the subject of anechoic chambers.

Frank, I understand your belief that the room should add nothing to the recording. But in my opinion, a true anechoic chamber (AC) can subtract from the recording, and the listening experience.  

Have you ever been in one? I have, and it's actually a very (ear)y experience. It is so dead silent that you can actually hear your heart beating and the pulse running through you arteries. Try shouting in such a room. It's seems as if no one could hear you because the sound gets so completely absorbed into the walls.

If you were listening to speakers in an AC, I would bet that you'd have to be within a couple of feet from them to hear them, and you'd need very high amplification to propel the sound.

My room is certainly not anechoic, but it is very highly damped with large amounts of fiberglass insulation in the walls and ceiling, acoustical ceiling tiles, rough sawn cedar planks on the walls, which is a porous and absorbant soft wood, and heavily padded wall to wall carpeting.  There is no slap echo in my room. Stereo imaging is very good. I have a fairly powerful 200 wpc system, but it seems more like a 20 wpc system in this room, because the room just gobbles up a lot of the sound energy. When I have tried this system upstairs in my large living room, there is more than enough power, and the music sounds much more vibrant and alive.

Just to lay to rest the argument that my amp isn't up to the task, I have also had the same results with a 500wpc Bryston, and a 250wpc? AVA, courtesy of Jackman.

I do, however, strongly agree with AVA and Dan B., despite his hostilities, that too much emphasis has been placed on wire and not enough on the room. I do strongly agree that the room is the most important component in a system. I too, have listened to many abysmal sounding systems with megabuck components because of poor room acoustics. Do everything possible to get the room right before worring about wire.

[John Casler]

If you want to hear what it sounds like to take your room out of the equation try HEADPHONES

No room effects

Now since headphones don't have the directional cues to allow the brain to percieve a "soundstage" in the proper perspective then we have to use our rooms.

Frank is right that "any" room "created" sound will infect the original recording and change it.

However, different room interaction creates different effects.

Reflected highs and mids, definately change the sonic charachter of the original, whether we perceive it as "more real" or not.

But, when we get to the lower (bass) frequencies, the "directing" boundaries can offer a "hornlike" directing affect which is more like just an extension of the speaker.

Nearfield in an anechoic chamber would sound like headphones.  As you move away from the speaker, you will begin lose frequencies from lower to higher, depending on the dispersion characteristics of the drivers.

This is why Brian's LEDE suggestion might sound more accurate to the original recording.  It reduces immediate mid and hf reflection and sonic hash (which some perceive as "air") and still allows the Bass frequencies to be directed toward the listener.

And positioning oneself in the LE (live end) allows the ear to percieve "sonic space" and have less of the effect of a blanket over your head, or the sonic vacumn effect of total absorption.

If I'm not mistaken, many mixing studios use "nearfield" or some form of LEDE (or both) to master tapes.

http://www.nas.com/~binary/studio.html

And as far as the recording studio itself, some are highly echoic and reflective and some are anechoic depending on need.

It looks like a "debate" or at least value assessment of electrical vs sonic could be interesting.

I, for one, enjoy exploring both.

In such a subjective pastime, with hundreds of variables, including the competency of your own hearing, it is almost a "mute" (I know ) point, and really a matter of the type of musical differences and sound you like, and what you think is real.