[KevinW]

WAG = "wild assed guess".   When your rigorous logical framework fails, WAG it.

SWAG = "scientific wild ass guess".  When your rigorous logical framework fails, and someone is paying you to be correct, pretend that you are still rigorous while you WAG.

These are common terms in the world of engineers and consultants  

Academics are less familiar with the term because instead of wagging, they either ignore the problem and move to something else, or patiently and dilligently build up the logical framework to prove the WAG.

Been there done that in both cases.  I didn't have the patience to be an academic, and couldn't stand the bs of being a consultant, so now I build audio equipment and tilt at ecological windmills.  

[KevinW]

I am amazed at the priorities around here.  A bunch of you guys get together for a serious listening session involving our Biro loudspeakers and that draws 400+ hits and 7 responses.

The talk turns to speaker wires and that draws 1100+ hits and 37 responses so far.

Whats important when you guys buy cars?  Hood ornaments?  Fan belts?  Oh yes, of course, I forgot, its the wire used between the car radio and the speakers in the doors.  What do you do when it gets so heavy you can't open the car doors?

Geeze.

Frank Van Alstine

Sorry Frank, I thought you would have recognized the religious nature of this debate.  You know the great thing about religious debates??  Everyone is qualified to participate; and to be an expert, all you have to do is shout or just keep talking while everyone else has left or ignored you.

[gary]

i have to second the recommendation on the VH diy silver cables. the biggest expense is the rca jacks (i used eichmann bullets for around $40), but other than that you can put together a pair for a few bucks. for instance, i think i paid $9 for 200 ft. of 32 ga., 99.9% pure, dead-soft silver from a jewelry supplier in nyc. unbelieveable cables for the money.

-gary

[doug s.]

tonto,

i've also heard good things about chimera labs cabling - tinking about rolling a pair... but, they use only hi-purity cu - interesting info about the stuff, on their www...

http://www.chimeralabs.com/

i also bought a bunch of toobs from dennis boyle - upstanding kinda guy...

doug s.

[Tonto Yoder]

tonto,
i've also heard good things about chimera labs cabling - tinking about rolling a pair... but, they use only hi-purity cu - interesting info about the stuff, on their www...

http://www.chimeralabs.com/
doug s.

I must have had it mixed up with some other company: now I remember the acronym "CCC" for continuous cast copper. I found the website with which I was familiar
http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/newinfo.html
The new website looks much more professional and inviting.

[nathanm]

From what Jennifer has told me, the customers are cost-no-object kind of people. Must be nice...

Nice for business, surely.  As profitable as a Nigerian money laundering scam without having to hire actors, or any of that messy legality business. Ethically...about the same.

Those must be the mindless rich folk I spoke of earlier. Although 'logic-no-object' is more like it...

I've spent a little bit of time experimenting with cables today... and my initial results are that there is a noticeable difference with the 8k cables.

Noticeable?  Well, that seems quite proper for an 8 thousand dollar cable!

I'm certain that a much more expensive and revealing speaker would magnify the differences between cables and thus make the good stuff even more worth the money.

Revealing what? Just what an idiot its owner is?  Indeed!

Terminating 19 strands of 18ga into a single RCA aint easy.

Why is she wasting her time with this small potatoes stuff?  Just stack 300 strands of copper together and charge a million dollars for it.  It will get plenty of press and some nutjob will buy the thing.  You could call it the Crock Of Shit Cable.

I hope the US government contracts Jena Labs to rewire the nation so that power outage thing never happens again.  Sure we will bankrupt the country, but hey, our high voltage power lines will have pretty pink braids!

[Tonto Yoder]

Kevin's statement above--"just keep talking while everyone else has left or ignored you" seems to have been prophetic.

[John B]

I don’t usually indulge in wire debates, as they are a closed loop.  Those that hear differences that they feel are worth the money will stay convinced of it, and those that do not believe that a signal can be affected by its “pathway” will stick doggedly to that point of view.

I’ve been on the fence in regards to wire being a “significant” factor in audio reproduction.   Since my only experience with wire has been in the sub $300 category I couldn’t really state one way or the other whether the mega expensive stuff had any validity with real audio improvements.   I was not willing to gamble that kind of money to find out.

Then I heard from someone, whose audiophile expertise I highly respected, who urged me to try some power cords from a company called Sahuaro.   Of all the wire products I’m most skeptical of, power cords are it.  My thinking was you’ve got standard house wiring coming in, how is the last 4' going from outlet to component going to make any difference at all.   However, since there was a trial period guarantee with the product I felt it was worth the effort to try it.   I decided to get two of the cords, which ran me close to $2K.   My expectations were that I would find some subtle difference and that I would return the cords and use the money to get a component that would really benefit my audio system.      I still have the cords, and would never think of giving them up for any reason.  The improvement in musicality and dynamic presence of the sound in my room was far beyond subtle.  At first I thought I must be imagining it all, but repeated switching back and forth between the standard power cords and the Sahuaros dispelled any doubt, time and time again.   The sonic effect of switching back to the standard power cords was like watching a balloon deflate.  Why this should be and what this new design of power cord is actually doing I couldn’t explain.  All’s I know is it works, and it’s a very potent.  

So, for those that say it can’t happen, they will continue to believe that, for those that have experience with wire making a significant difference, they will understand and relate to my experience.   And the tide comes in, and the tide goes out  

[avahifi]

So we have $2000 power cords that seem to sound a lot better.  OK, why not measure the resistance, inductance, and capacitance of these cords as compared to a standard $5.00 power cord.  Then adjust these values for the standard cable until it electrically matches the high priced ones.  Then listen again, see if any differences remain.

Or, hey, why don't you figure out if you can duplicate the effects you want with $5.00 worth of parts rather than $2000 worth of wires.  That is what baffles me.  Its the utter lack of curiosity - the lack of thinking "OK, we can hear a difference, now WHY does that difference exist."  Instead its just blindly pay $2000 for that power cord (essentially paying the witchdoctor) instead of caring to find the reasons for what is happening.

Frank Van Alstine

[doug s.]

c'mon frank, he got *two* power cords - that's only $1k each.  what's wrong w/that?!?  

personally, i agree w/jonb - cabling can make a difference - even power cords.  but, no way ya need to spend that much money on 'em.  i am sure there are p/c's <$100 that will do for john what his spendy suckers did...

ymmv,

doug s.

[John B]

WHY does that difference exist.

Perhaps the answer is in the white paper done on this new design (you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it)

http://www.audiolon.com/photo/sahuarowhite.PDF

[doug s.]

WHY does that difference exist.

Perhaps the answer is in the white paper done on this new design (you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it)

http://www.audiolon.com/photo/sahuarowhite.PDF

hmmm... i wonder if it's any coincidence that most toilet paper is also white...   sorry, couldn't resist...

another extremely expensive cable (but a freaking bargain in comparison to the sahuaro models)  ya may wanna inwestigate:



http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.html

personally, i like the jon risch (and john risch inspired) power cords, & cord like those done by chris venhaus...

doug s.

[John B]

Where is the curiosity?

OK, why not measure the resistance, inductance, and capacitance of these cords as compared to a standard $5.00 power cord. Then adjust these values for the standard cable until it electrically matches the high priced ones. Then listen again, see if any differences remain.

This brings up a thought    I'm no expert, nor I have the equipment, to truly evaluate these power cords on a measurement level.  Wouldn't it be interesting if someone who had the technical experience and equipment to do a thorough evaluation of this supposed new technology, to evaluate not only on a listening level but to measure the results.  Wouldn't cost a cent to do it either, since there's a money back guarantee.  You would need to modify a Transcendence 7 pre and Fet Valve EX amp to take the cord, but for someone who's espousing curiosity and experiment like this should be right up your alley.

[JohnR]

Those that hear differences that they feel are worth the money will stay convinced of it, and those that do not believe that a signal can be affected by its &#8220;pathway&#8221; will stick doggedly to that point of view.

I readily hear differences between cables. I also think that $8000 is a stupid amount of money to pay for an interconnect. It makes no difference whether it really is any better than a $1000 interconnect (which is merely a ludicrous price), as there are limitations to what you can achieve with playback and throwing money at it doesn't change that.

I can't help wondering if the folks that buy 8k interconnects are happy with their systems. I somehow doubt it.

[Marbles]

I can't help wondering if the folks that buy 8k interconnects are happy with their systems. I somehow doubt it.

If they called up their local guy and bought a $250,000 system all at once, I bet they are happy with it.  After all they don't know any better and assume they have the best of everything.

If they took the journey most of us have and built our systems up over time, one upgrade at a time, they may be happy with their system, but I bet they will never be satisfied with their system.

[Marbles]

I also hear differences between wires and have spent more than I wanted to on them, but am happy with the results.

I would not tell anyone how to spend their money.  I figure if they were smart enough to make it, they are probably smart enough to spend it.

I spend most of my cable money with a certain company whose cables I like with my system more than any other.  I get custom cables made, for example to rewire my speakers and I realize that it takes time for a boutique company to make these cables.  I realize that it is the man hours that cost as much or more than the material costs of these cables.

If I could make the same cable myself at half the cost, I might give it a try, on the other hand my time is probably better spent either making money, or with my family.

As always YMMV.

[bubba966]

I also hear differences between wires and have spent more than I wanted to on them, but am happy with the results.

I would not tell anyone how to spend their money. I figure if they were smart enough to make it, they are probably smart enough to spend it.

I spend most of my cable money with a certain company whose cables I like with my system more than any other. I get custom cables made, for example to rewire my speakers and I realize that it takes time for a boutique company to make these cables. I realize that it is the man hours that cost as much or more than the material costs of these cables.

If I could make the same cable myself at half the cost, I might give it a try, on the other hand my time is probably better spent either making money, or with my family.

As always YMMV.

I'd have to fully agree with that.

I've had no problems hearing or seeing what difference a quality cable can make. And I'm slowly having my cabling custom built to my wants/needs. I'm more than happy with who's been building my cables. And I don't think that it's too expensive as I'm certainly well aware of the time things take to do properly and that's where the cost usually lies. I've tried building my own CC89259 speaker cables once. I built a center channel cable for someone first. And it took 4 hours to do so. As such I've not bothered to build any more. It's almost cheaper just to pay someone to else that's more experienced & has the proper tools. And it's certainly a lot less of a pain in the ass.

I might guess that the cabling in my system is 15-20% of the overall cost. But that bothers me not as it makes a difference that I notice.

[Mad DOg]

This thread has been cleansed of the offensive material (moved to the Fight Club) and reopened. Please treat each other respectfully...Thank you for your cooperation.

[jackman]

Please help me understand why my last post was moved?  I don't think the comments warranted moving.   Too much moderation can be as bad as too little...or worse.   I like you guys and don't want to see the best forum on this site go down the tubes.  

I agree the AVA Capacitor thread needed to be deleted and was happy to see it go.  The arguments became personal and things got ugly.  I don't think the same was true of this thread.  Nathanm has always been a bit of a smartass, but he's a good guy.  He adds a bit of well-needed spice to this site.   Hopefully, everyone (including the moderators) will exercise a bit of restraint before posting and before moving posts.  

Just a suggestion,

Jman

[markC]

See what you've gone and done, jman?   Everything was just fine until you mentioned wires!