What's the best tube sounding solid state amp?

warnerwh · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 05:23 pm »

Well Marty I have the Supertower/R SE's with Scanspeak tweeters and a spiral ribbon supertweeter. You can see them here:
http://www.vmpsaudio.com/strpic.htm. Click on picture for specs etcetera if you're not familiar with this line with the Dynaribbon mids. Besides having a bit of dryness in the midrange I feel is SS related) the Dynaribbons tend to exhibit a bit of sibiliance I'm trying to get rid of. Everything else is great. The amp is a Parasound HCA 3500.
T hese are only a couple of years old and I'm very happy with the sound. I'd like to hear about this inexpensive speaker wire though, as I'm sure others would too. Thanks

doug s. · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 05:42 pm »

warnerwh,

i agree w/audiojerry. it's not yust watts, it's stability into difficult loads, & ability to deliver current. while i'm firmly in the toob camp now ( i absolutely love my mesa baron), the amps it replaced - electrocompaniet - are the only s/s amps i'd consider. i presently have a pair of aw75dmb's driving my vmps larger subs. even the lowly aw60ftt's, rated at 60wpc (110 into 4 ohms), are stable w/loads <0.5amps, & output current in excess of 60 amps... the ec amps are neutral, liquid-smooth, detailed, w/iron-fisted control. only thing missing is the bloom that only tubes can prowide...

imo, of course!

doug s.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #22 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 07:00 pm »

"it's not just watts, it's stability into difficult loads, & ability to deliver current"
Well that's pretty close. The first half of that statement is right on the money. The ability to deliver current is a little vague, could you explain that further?

d.b.

doug s. · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 07:29 pm »

hi dan,

well, actually, not being an electrical engineer, i prolly *could* use some help explaining that!

but, i know that the ability of an amplifier to output current is important. speakers w/difficult loads can tax an amps' ability to deliver current... most 60wpc amps, unlike the ec aw60ftt, will not be able to deliver >60amps peak current. even my old original adcom gfa555, 200wpc, 325wpc into 4 ohms, stable w/loads of less than 1 ohm, was only rated at ~20amps of current delivery...

doug s.

Brian Walsh · « **Reply #24 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 07:47 pm »

Quote from: warnerwh

I'd like to hear about this inexpensive speaker wire though, as I'm sure others would too.

6 gauge from Lowe's. What about Home Depot?

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #25 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 07:57 pm »

Hi Doug;
Your old adcom had enough current to fry just about any voice coil. If you get the chance, look at a woofers voice coil, and then ask yourself? How long could this take twenty amps?

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #26 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 08:09 pm »

Hi Doug;
I have a little experiment you might want to do, just for sh__ts, and giggles. Install a 3 amp Fast Blo fuse inbetween the power amp and the speaker. Now; a 3 amp Fast Blo fuse can typically take 6 amps for 5 milliseconds before it blows. Dollars to donuts you will have a very hard time blowing that fuse, if you can get it to blow at all.
d.b.

doug s. · « **Reply #27 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 08:25 pm »

dan, so what are ya sayin'? an amps' ability to deliver current isn't important?

personally, i tink it's a good indicator of an amps' ability to drive difficult speaker loads, regardless of whether or not ya can weld w/it!

doug s.

aaird · « **Reply #28 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 08:37 pm »

In case you missed it, the chinese Monoblocks on page two of this thread have most of the other amps beat in the area of current delivery.

3000 Volt Amps (2 torroidal 1.5KV trannies)
240,000 uF capacitance. (120,000 each)
48 Toshiba output transistors (24/channel)

Class A to 100 watts, A/B to 300. Into 8 ohms.

And new, these will cost less at $1500 a pair than some of the other amps mentioned will cost used.

Andrew

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #29 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 08:41 pm »

Hi Doug; Try the experiment and you will find out for sure.
d.b.

warnerwh · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 03:33 am »

Doug if you try Dan's experiment be careful. You aren't likely to blow 3 amp fuses and if you try you will probably blow something else like at least your tweeters. I had a Hafler XL 600 with 300 wpc. There were sockets for fast blow fuses for speaker protection. Most speakers you use a 2 amp fuse. Lower impedance speakers though you would want a larger fuse. I could get them to occasionally go though and that's running 300 wpc. Never did blow a driver in those Vandersteen 2C's I had. It was extremely loud with occasional clipping at that point too.

Iced Halo · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 10:08 am »

Marty,

Quote

I've had extensive experience with the with the ME 555, and the Pass 250. First of all, the Pass X250 costs about four times what the ME does. On an absolute basis, the Pass Sounds better than the ME (but the ME is close, very close). The ME that I had (one of my reviewers purchased one) was in no way bright. If anything, the highs are a little forgiving, but still extended to the point of being very realistic. It is a great little amp.

Thanks for the info. I actually live in Australia, and they have a dealer about 5 minutes away from me. I would be comparing the ME850 (big brother of the 550/555 and supposedly much better than either) to the Pass X150 (which would be similar in price). Have you heard the 850? I am guessing it would be better than the Pass's based on your experience with the 555? Didn't realise that the ME stacked up to such top-class competition, since there is a vocal number of ppl here that say it is very clinical sounding and the likes of BAT VK-series top it easily. There are also some that say it is better than Krell and ML's, and even others (quite a few!) who rate it slightly above Rotel amps only. Hard to know who to believe so guess I'll need to try it out myself! The ME's apparently use no global negative feedback and Pass use very little too (although MOSFET design rather than the ME's bipolar), so perhaps that is why they both sound very good.

Cheers

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 12:19 pm »

"Doug if you try Dan's experiment be careful. You aren't likely to blow 3 amp fuses and if you try you will probably blow something else like at least your tweeters. I had a Hafler XL 600 with 300 wpc. There were sockets for fast blow fuses for speaker protection. Most speakers you use a 2 amp fuse. Lower impedance speakers though you would want a larger fuse. I could get them to occasionally go though and that's running 300 wpc. Never did blow a driver in those Vandersteen 2C's I had. It was extremely loud with occasional clipping at that point too."
You are basically right. Which brings me to the point I want to make.
High instantaneous current is basically a myth for 99.9% of the speakers out there. Real power is determined by watts rms into a given load. That is proven by your statement on how difficult it is to blow a 3 amp fast blo fuse.
I did a think piece for Bound for Sound years ago that covers a lot this subject matter. Maybe Mr. DeWulf will consider republishing or possibly posting that article on Audio Circle.

doug s. · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 01:02 pm »

hi dan,

i understand the point yure making. i realize the ec amp i mentioned, even tho rated to deliver >60a peak current, only has a 5a fuse... but i still believe an amps' current delivery capability is a good indicator of its ability to perform well w/difficult speaker loads. and, back to the original thread question, if i couldn't use a toob amp, ec would be my amp of choice.

doug s.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 01:18 pm »

Being a manufacturer I cannot respond in full to your post. However; if you tell me what speakers you are using and the size of your room, I should be able to give you some general guidelines.
d.b.

Curt · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 01:48 pm »

Hi Guys,

Some thoughts on “What about the amplifier current output capability?” This is an interesting topic.

The power ratting (Watts) will give you an idea of how loud your speakers will be. For example we all know 124W will add +21dB to the loudspeakers (neglecting the room and the fact there are two loudspeakers), so 89dB speakers can reach ~110dB at 1m and ~100dB at the sweet spot which is about as loud as a typical live performance. But, Watts is just one variable parameter.

Good audio amplifiers (this example SS) are a stiff voltage source which means the voltage doesn't drop under a heavy loads, it remains at the same the same level (until the power supply VA rating is exceeded then it drops). So in this good amplifier it's the current that varies as the load impedance changes over the frequency range, assuming you don't exceed the maximum VA (Watts) rating of the power supply the voltage will remain available (what ever level the system gain is using) in full quantity.

So here is an XLspeaker example:

The amp has 70V rails (~500/1000W @ 8/4 ohms) and your playing XLspeaker system that is rated at 500W continuous @4 ohms which has impedance dips <500Hz (where most of the power is in music) that reach a minimum of 2 ohms.

It's party night and the volume is turned up, the peaks are hitting 500W so the gain is set to allow 45Vmax peaks. Now some big <500Hz material kicks in and it's 45/2 = 22.5A the XL speakers are hungry for... What if you crank it a little more (you got 25 more volts to go), 10V more and the current demand is 27.5A... Nice party!

So, which amp will sound better, control the drivers best, have the best resolution and accuracy? A 10Apeak amp or a 50Apeak amp? Some of this <500Hz material can be quite extended in time, not just 5ms. I won't even get into real and imaginary power which complicates things even more. These XLspeakers can really demand some juice!

This is why IMO it's important to know the current output capability of an amplifier, just to help understand how the system components will match-up. It's just as important as the Watt rating, particularly if you own or are thinking of buying difficult to drive loudspeakers with low Zdips.

One other point:

Is this always a good thing? Not really, this is why I don't like amps that double power all the way to 2 ohms. I believe Mfgs do it just to show the power supply is overkill, to give them the edge in specs-manship, part of the marketing hype.

What you wind up with is SPL levels that vary with the loudspeakers impedance over frequency, a NOT flat speaker response curve!, i.e. the 2 ohm dip will have a +3dB bump.

Audiophiles like a flat SPL level better than a bumpy one, at least I do.

Just some thoughts...

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 04:34 pm »

I am going to make this very brief and to the point. Applying sound reinforcement principles for a typical room of 15 by to 20 to 20 by 20 really does not work, due to the sound pressure levels that exceed the rooms capability, and the approximate doubling of power into 2 ohms is not marketing hype.
At this point I see no good reason to continue to post to this thread. I am sick and tired of misapplied theory.

Curt · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 05:40 pm »

Forget SPL, and I'll keep it short too.

The need for a loudspeaker to draw enough current from the amp to control the drivers properly, and the desire people, customers have to understand just how much current an amp can dump, I believe that's the question here.

People want to understand how well an amp will match-up to a system.

That's what this thread is about, not blowing fuses or SPL. The fact is, it is important to know how much current an amp can deliver, especially if you use large, power hungery loudspeakers.

audiojerry · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 06:16 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

Hi Doug; Try the experiment and you will find out for sure.
d.b.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but that doesn't sound like very friendly advice.

Perhaps a brief explanation from a learned engineer would be more helpful?

In the same spirit, here's some more advice for tube owners: Allow your cat to get nice and comfy and warm on top of the cage of your tube amp. Then leave the room. Keep repeating until kitty is able to hurl some vomit down into the
tubes and circuit board. The sonic effects can be easily heard.

JoshK · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 Aug 2003, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

In the same spirit, here's some more advice for tube owners: Allow your cat to get nice and comfy and warm on top of the cage of your tube amp. Then leave the room. Keep repeating until kitty is able to hurl some vomit down into the
tubes and circuit board. The sonic effects can be easily heard.

I'll stick with fish, ty.