[kenk]

Hi Bob,

After reading some of the postings and visiting your website I am very curious about your design.  I would like to ask you a few questions before I move forward on the Mini.

My current setup is Proceed AVP2 pre/pro, Bel Canto ref1000 (500w digital amp) and Dynaudio S3.4.  I like country, folk and jazz and I  listen to alot of music with vocal.  My room is kind of big, 30x14x8 but I don't listen at loud level.

1) Do you know if the mini can be better in the midrange/highs than the Dynaudio?  Right now I enjoy my Dynaudio as it is very easy on music (not in your face) and I can pretty much enjoy all kind of music.  The only thing I would like to improve is the midrange area as I full the Dynaudio is enjoyable, but it does not sound "real".   Bass is not an issue as I can always add a sub later.

2) Do you think digital amp is a good match to your mini?

3) In your opinion, how much diff between your timepiece and mini?

4) I know most speakers sound better when listen at loud level, does your mini need to be listen at loud level to sound its best?

I know you have a 30 days return policy but I am an accountant myself and don't like to return things as it just bad business for you.  If you do feel the mini is not for me please let me know upfront.

Thanks in advance.

Ken

[Double Ugly]

Hi Ken,

I can't answer questions specific to the Mini because I haven't heard them.  But since the Mini is based on the Timepiece and I own two different versions of those, I believe I'm in a position to offer a little insight while you're waiting for a response from Bob.

1) Do you know if the mini can be better in the midrange/highs than the Dynaudio?  Right now I enjoy my Dynaudio as it is very easy on music (not in your face) and I can pretty much enjoy all kind of music.  The only thing I would like to improve is the midrange area as I full the Dynaudio is enjoyable, but it does not sound "real".   Bass is not an issue as I can always add a sub later.

I'm not sure anyone - including Bob - can tell you whether the Mini will be better than the Dynaudio in your subjective opinion. 

What I can say without reservation is that SP Tech speakers are the cleanest, clearest and least colored speakers I've ever personally heard; a true transducer, if you will.  Consequently, they will accurately transmit the signal they're provided, meaning if the source components, amps and cabling combine to create the type presentation you want, you'll get it in spades.

Be advised - most good speakers are revealing enough to give you an idea about what your upstream components are - or aren't - doing.  That said, SP Technology speakers have a reputation for being ruthlessly revealing of sub-standard components, recordings, etc..  Personally, I've yet to hear a more revealing speaker, and for a year or so it was the bane of my music-listening existence.  But when I finally found the right mix of components, I attained a level of realism I didn't believe possible.

PS - I was looking for texture and organic presence in the midrange, too, and I found it (1) in my hybrid amps and (2) in the Ultimate PS from Bolder Cable.  If your amp, pre-amp and/or source produce that realism, you'll hear it.  If not, don't look for SP Tech speakers to create something that isn't produced upstream.

2) Do you think digital amp is a good match to your mini?

I'll leave this to Bob.  I've not tried a digital amp in years, and your amp enjoys a much better reputation than the one I owned.

I know someone in Europe is using digital (or more accurately, switching) amps and is exceedingly happy with the result.  I suspect your experience would be more like his than mine.

3) In your opinion, how much diff between your timepiece and mini?

Aside from bass extension, they should be essentially identical.  In fact, the smaller front panel will likely result in even better soundstaging and imaging.

4) I know most speakers sound better when listen at loud level, does your mini need to be listen at loud level to sound its best?

A certain level must be reached for concert-like realism, but the Timepieces sound magnificent at low volumes.

Perhaps Bob can chime in on the Mini differences (pardon the sort-of pun), assuming any exist.

I know you have a 30 days return policy but I am an accountant myself and don't like to return things as it just bad business for you.  If you do feel the mini is not for me please let me know upfront.

An honest answer you will get.  You may not like everything he says, and he may not have the insight or experience with your equipment to satisfactorily address all your questions/concerns, but he'll be honest and forthright.  On that you can bet the farm! 

-Jim

[Aether Audio]

Ken,

WOW!!!  Looks like Double-Ugly pretty much nailed it - 1,2,3,4 - right down the line.  I will add though that your 500 watts/channel is not TOO much power whatsoever for  the Timepiece 3.0 or the Mini.  If you like jazz and other well recorded music that have large dynamic peaks (you know, the ones that only last a millisecond or so), then a big amp like that won't be clipping them. 

As long as the amp isn't the limiting factor, then those transients will be faithfully reproduced by any of our models - including the Mini.  They LOVE large transients.  Don't worry, you'll probably damage your hearing before you damage the speakers.  But do they NEED that kind of power?  No way! 

If the character of the sound changes with changing volume levels, that means the speaker is exhibiting dynamic non-linearity.  That's bad.  Our old Timepiece 2.0 was a bit like that, they liked to be cranked a little.  Since then we've changed the tweeter to a far superior one (which is the same one used in the Mini) and now that little issue is gone.  Like DU said, if you feed them natural and organic sound, that's what you'll hear.  It's just my opinion, but that's what I believe any properly designed speaker should do...add or subtract nothing from the signal it is given.  That is and always has been my design goals.

Other than the above, I have nothing to add to what DU has already said.  Are they right for you?  That's hard to say.  But that's why we offer the return policy...I'm not too worried about it.

Hope this helps.

Take care,
-Bob

[kenk]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info, as you have just hired two new empolyees, are you sure Double Ugly is not one of them  

Anyway joking aside, I will try out a pair and I hope it is a keeper so I can sell my Dyn and get back some $$.


Ken

[WEEZ]

Bob,

Your new 'Mini' should be a good seller. Good luck with it!

Can you talk about the impedence curve just a bit....min., max., phase, etc. In other words, if someone wanted to use a tubed amplifier would it be treated as an 8-ohm load? 6-ohm load?

Thanks,

WEEZ

btw; Jim, what's your commission? j-u-s-t kidding

[Double Ugly]

btw; Jim, what's your commission? j-u-s-t kidding

That'd be great!  Maybe then I could actually afford the stuff I'm buying anyway! 

Re: the Minis, since they're essentially little Timepieces, I suspect the impedance curve is very similar to that of the Timepieces.  I don't remember the exact numbers Bob gave me, but I remember thinking they were pretty good. 

Since I own first and second generation Timepieces, I can tell you for a fact that the curve of the later edition is a lot better; the difference is easily heard!

Since the Timepieces are 8-ohm, I'd wager the Minis are, too.

-Jim

[Karsten]

Ken,

You will likely experience the following:

1. Surprising dynamic headroom
2. You may not need a sub...(No kidding)
3. I'll let you fill in the rest from here...
4.
5.
6.
etc.

Enjoy 

Karsten

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info, as you have just hired two new empolyees, are you sure Double Ugly is not one of them  

Anyway joking aside, I will try out a pair and I hope it is a keeper so I can sell my Dyn and get back some $$.


Ken

[WEEZ]

Jim,...good, I'd hate to help finance your audio habit..

WEEZ

[Aether Audio]

Weez,

Thanks - we're hoping so!

Impedance?...we don't need no stinking impedance!  Ooops, looks like we're stuck with it though.  I for one, vote to make it go away...or at least make it flat...purely resistive too while we're at it.

Man...seems like I never get things my way.  In fact, "impedance" and I haven't exactly been the best of friends in the past.  But...one day I got fed up and slapped it around a little a while back, and at least now it's not giving me any crap anymore!

As far as the Mini goes...can't give you specifics yet...still tweaking the crossover.  DU nailed it again though, they'll be very much like the Timepieces - probably even a little smoother/less phase.  Impedance measurements before tweaking is completed are meaningless, but I can say the general trend will be 8-Ohms and higher.  That from experience and knowing the values of components I'm using.  Since the woofer's DC resistance is about 6-Ohms, the impedance can never fall below that.  Since the tweeter is more efficient than the woofer, we have to "pad" it down, so that tends to raise the impedance (depending somewhat on how you pad it).  Then when you add waveguide gain, that really has to be padded down to make the system flat, so in the region above crossover the impedance (typically) really rises to as much as possibly 20-Ohms or so.

I'd say from experience that the impedance will dip to about 6.5-Ohms, somewhere around or just above 100Hz or so.  That dip is usually pretty narrow and not a problem for most any amp - tube or otherwise.  The upshot is that after the fight I had last year with impedance, neither the Minis or any other speaker I design will go out the door that's not tube friendly.  The real thorn you have to watch out for is phase angle.  Well, I learned my lesson dealing with that sucker too.  We don't hit more than +/-40 degrees (better be less than that) or something's gotta give...like the crossover frequency.  Better to be higher with less phase than low (usually the goal) and let the phase rain on your parade.

Other than my assurance here (for whatever that's worth), I can't really give you any specifics right now.  Won't be too long though.

Gee...was that a waste of server space or what?

-Bob

[WEEZ]

Bob,

Thanks for your detailed response to my question. If and when you have more precise info, post away!

WEEZ

[bbchem]

 

Hi Bob and Double Ugly, I ordered the minis last week and would like a quick opinion although it was probably already answered. I will be using a TAD-60 Class A/AB biased tube amp and a Proceed Transport with Audio Alchemy Dac with an Audio Innovations tube preamp ( great little english pre) How to do you think that combo will do? I also have a proceed Amp 150WPC solid state amp and also a pair of Dared VP-300b mono block tube amps at 8WPC (?) I can't wait to get them, I am super impulsive and I have to calm myself during the waiting period

Reards, Bill   aa

[Double Ugly]

Hi Bill,

I haven't heard the TAD-60, but from what I've read, I doubt you'll have any problem whatsoever driving the Minis to satisfactory levels.  I know the former president of Clarion electronics is driving a more difficult load (Timepieces) with a 50W amp, and he's very happy.  But it all boils down to personal preference.

Bottom line - try it; in fact, try all the options you have and then decide what you like best.  If you like what the TAD-60 and your other components are doing now, you'll probably like 'em with the Minis.  Whatever they do - right or wrong - you'll just get more of it with SP Techs. 

I'd be interested in hearing the Minis with the VP-300bs, but that's just me.  Even so, you owe it to yourself to hook 'em up to the Proceed.  IME, most really good speakers respond positively to more power, especially when it's good, clean power.  I have a pair of 98db Daedalus DA-1s, and they are amazing when fed well (i.e., lots o' power).

My feeling is that the above is a waste of space, and that I've failed to provide a modicum of help, insight or assistance.  I apologize for that, Bill, but I tried.  That's gotta count for something... right? 

-Jim

[mcullinan]

Bill,
In what states is it illegal to use your speakers in the buff? YEs, I must ask the tough hard hitting questions!
Mike

I apologize for this email in advance.

[seadogs1]

Bob, can the mini's be used close to the the wall or must they be placed well away from room boundaries? How far apart, min/max.

Thanks!

[Aether Audio]

seadogs1,

Sorry so late getting back to you.  It's been a mad house lately - been running behind on previous orders and now the Minis are turning out to be a pretty hot item.  In fact, maybe in a couple of months we'll all be getting feedback on them regarding such questions as you have asked.  In the mean time, I will do the best that I can to fill in the blanks.

With regards to room boundaries and placement, they are no different than any other average "monopole" speaker.  "Dipoles" (open baffles and such) are less predictable, more sensitive and usually require more experimentation to find the best placement.

As with any monopole speaker, the closer it gets to a wall, the more bass reinforcement one experiences.  Placement where two walls meet will give you even more bass boost.  That's just the physics.  If bass boost were the only issue we could find relatively easy and acceptable solutions to deal with it.  Unfortunately, that's not usually the case.

The other issue that's harder to deal with is that of early reflections.  Below about 500Hz, most monopole speakers become omnidirectional - you'll measure as much SPL behind the speaker as you do in front of it.  When you put the speaker near a boundary, the shorter wavelengths (100Hz-500Hz) will bounce off the wall and come back forward to mix with the direct signal.  At some frequencies they will combine in-phase and you'll get a boost.  At other frequencies they'll combine out-of-phase and you'll get SPL "suckouts."  The frequencies where these peaks and dips occur in the response will shift as you move the speaker closer to or further away from the wall.  Once you move the speaker "far enough" away from the wall, the effect is reduced enough in the listening area to be considered "acceptable."  That's why most folks try to get their speakers at least 3-4 feet from any walls - if possible.

The key here is that virtually every monopole speaker in the world will suffer from these effects to pretty much the same degree.  The Mini is no exception as nobody has defeated the laws of physics.  What makes some speakers "more acceptable" closer to walls is that they will usually have anemic bass to begin with.  Placing them closer to the wall gives the benefit of the bass (< 100Hz) boost effect.  It's sort of misleading though as most of the boost will come in at frequencies above about 50Hz and really peak around 80Hz.  That's not what most of us call real bass.  But... for a speaker that hardly has any to begin with, it might help a little.

The Mini on the other hand, is FLAT to 40Hz (anechoic).  Puttining it near a wall won't boost the 40Hz and below range hardly at all.  But... it will boost the upper bass in the range mentioned above just like any other speaker.  They will still sound pretty darn good as that effect alone can't destroy their ability to resolve and reproduce waveforms/music accurately.  Besides, the human hearing mechanism has the ability to differentiate between direct and reflected signals to a certain degree.  In other words, a good room can't make a bad speaker sound good and a bad room can't totally ruin a good speaker either.  But... if it were me and I really wanted to squeeze the most out of the Mini (or any other speaker) I'd try to find a way to get them a reasonable distance from the walls.

As far as distance apart goes...there are no "absolutes."  It all depends on your room size/seating options.  I always recommend the standard equilateral triangle--1/3rd - 2/3rds rule.  Because of their controlled directivity and superb imaging ability, they can be placed a little further apart than usual - if need be.  Other than that, following standard guidelines usually delivers the best results.

Take care
-Bob