[bluesky]

Hi Dave

Seeing as you have a great knowledge of all things wood I thought I'd throw this question out to you and anyone else who might know (and yes, I do hope to build one of Dave's kits).

A number of people seem to think Maple is pretty special for mounting components on.  The problem for me is that I live in Australia and, needless to say, Maple certainly doesn't grow on trees in these parts!   

Is there some intrinsic quality of maple or would a hard wood such as our Tasmanian Oak (my personal favourite) be just as good for this purpose?  I intend to build my 1801's with this timber and I would hope to build some thick chunks of this for use with my turntable and amps etc.

Cheers

Bluesky 

[wildfire99]

A number of people believe in rather bizarre things, like magic rocks and acoustical-grade green markers. Fortunately you do not have to.

For cabinets, I hope you mean that you will be building cabinets out of MDF and then wrapping it in hardwood. Building cabinets out of 100% hardwood is not a fantastic idea, for many reasons. Your audio gear won't know what kind of wood you're using as long as you don't tell them.

[JLM]

You might search for engineering data on the density and Young's modulus (sometimes just called "E", its a measure of how much it deflects under a given amount of pressure) of your locally available woods and then compare to maple.  These parameters should (as far as basic engineering knowledge may take you) define a given material's acoustical properties.

Using solid wood for stands, racks, plinths, or face plates has many advocates, but as stated above not for speaker cabinets.  Wood is non-homogeneous, meaning the grain pattern does not allow it to behave the same in any given direction.  Wood is porous, so it can sound different at varying humidity levels.  Wood can have defects (both visible and under the surface) that can affect sonic performance.  Not properly dried (this has gotten to be a bigger issue in recent years here in the States) wood can shrink, warp, twist, etc.  And wood has various grades that measure other properties.

But if you want to put a block of wood on the front of the "real" baffle, that should be cool.   

[bluesky]

Hi Thanks for all this advice, I now feel comfortable in using some native Australian harwood timbers for mounting my components on.

I just needed some sage advice on this subject.  I has always been my intention to build some sort of contrained layer dampening but have the fascia in wood to match my speakers.

I figure on using veneered Tasmanian Oak for the speakers and thought I could build component mounting blocks that have solid hardwood surrounds and then veneer the top and then have a couple of dissimilar layers inside the block in a contrained layer arrangement.

I'll do a post when I eventually get round to building it.

Thanks again,

Bluesky 

[richidoo]

Read Charles Altmann's "Mother of Tone" website.

Specifically this page about sonic character of materials: http://mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm

Have fun with your project. I have read that those speakers are awesome.
Rich

[Daygloworange]

Read Charles Altmann's "Mother of Tone" website.

I just read the "Effect of Lacquer" page on the Charles Altmann website and can tell you it's pure bunk. The guy is delusional. Sorry.
Ever thing he states about how and why (Fender) guitars sound this way and that way, is complete bunk.

You wanna talk Fender's?

 I've been playing Fender Strats since I was 14 years old. It's the only guitars I have ever owned ( save for a few), and know more about their history than just about anybody I've ever known. They were an obsession with me since I first picked one up. I have owned oven a dozen Fender Strats over the years. I currently own 5 Fender Strats and 2 Schecter Strats.

Over the course of more than 25 years I've tried every combination of mod you can do to them. Single ply celluloid pickguard, triple ply celluloid, single ply acrylic, solid brass, solid aluminum, and even wood. 8 screw hold down, 11 screw hold down.

I've tried different nut materials as well, bone, brass, graphite, nylon, delrin, stainless steel needle bearing nut.

String saddles of stamped steel, cast steel, graphite, powdered metal.

I've experimented with finishes as well. Bare wood, oiled wood( very bad), vinyl sealer, nitrocellulose, conversion varnish, polyester.

I've also experimented with different woods for the bodies. Alder, Mahogany, Basswood, Poplar, Ash, Oak, Swamp Ash.

Conclusion????

Every one of my guitars sounds different. Sometimes large differences exist, sometimes you're splitting hairs. Not for any of the reasons Altmann would want you to believe.

The factors that have the most influence are the wood species used for the body, the density of the wood, fretboard material (maple or rosewood), the pickups, the strings, and string gauges. The pick you use, it's gauge, the material it's made of is a very important factor in timbre and attack.

 Most of the other factors I listed earlier, as mods and tweaks, affect the sound to some degree, but it's not really worth pursuing. There are good sounding guitars, and there are great sounding guitars. There are bad sounding ones. You simply get rid of them. You are just polishing on a turd otherwise.

That whole page is drivel. Utter garbage.

If that's his idea of a white paper on the topic, it get's an F.

Oh, and BTW, that pickguard on his modified Fender is made of Masonite. Yeah, a "real" tonewood.   

Sorry about the rant, but this guy is feeding people pure B.S.

Cheers

[doorman]

You have some wonderful woods in Oz. USE 'EM!! Methinks in a "blind test" you'd be hard pressed to hear any difference (if any!)
                                                                       Don

[David Ellis]

Excellent feedback gents!!

I will provide my feedback/opinion on these matters too.  This will be easy since there is a very good compendium of material already provide above.

My short-summary is... that a speaker should be primarily MDF covered with veneer.  There are other materials too.  I do think that low density concrete makes a dandy cabinet. 

My initial read of the Mother of Tone website was a few years ago.  I thought the website was quite impressive, until the guy displayed a fancy picture of a really cheesy PCB having about $15 of parts.  I then reevaluated my thoughts about his comments, and searched for supporting information.  There is some affirmative information regarding the finish material chosen for acoustic instruments (i.e. Violins), but almost nothing supporting the value of using different finish on other types of instruments.  There could be some value present, but I am not drinking that snake-oil.  I believe that richidoo has confirmed these sentiments.

Dave

[JLM]

Science/history reveals that a Stratovarius sounds the way it does because the wood was grown during a long cold spell in Europe and the wood grew slower then.  The same warm/cold periods correlate with historical developments in the past 1500 years or so in Europe too.

[Daygloworange]

There is some affirmative information regarding the finish material chosen for acoustic instruments (i.e. Violins),

That myth has been perpetuated for decades, and as historical information has been uncovered and experiments have shown, there was nothing special about the finishes used by Stradivarius or others. Many years ago, I believed that it could hold some of the answers, but as it turns out, there is no truth to the matter.

There was another thread where we discussed woods, and the often romantic notions as to their mystical superiority in certain applications. People can be easily mislead into thinking that way about "tonewoods" and so forth. I posted some examples of some of the amazing advancements in musical instruments using non traditional materials.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42626.30

Cheers

[David Ellis]

That myth has been perpetuated for decades, and as historical information has been uncovered and experiments have shown, there was nothing special about the finishes used by Stradivarius or others. Many years ago, I believed that it could hold some of the answers, but as it turns out, there is no truth to the matter.

Cool - great stuff!! 

I figured that if several folks were pursuing different instrument finishes that they were significant.  Hm, do you think they engaged in this dialogue solely for marketing?

Dave

[tybee]

I have watched this thread with interest and laughed out loud at Daygloworange's comments.  While I am not trying to create controversy, I strongly disagree with Daygloworange's observations.  My background includes studying and playing the violin for 20 plus years and wood and age of wood does make a difference in the sound for voice and acoustical instruments. Try to buy a strad compared to a fender, no contest. Much of my current listening involves listening to the voice and acoustical music with no amplified music instruments. 

I am an 1801b owner as well as the owner of two pairs of all wood speakers, and there is a definite difference in sound between MDF/veneered speakers and an all wood speaker.  In my system, the 1801s must be tamed using softer woods placed under my components to balance the treble which can be unforgiving in harshness on certain recordings.  When I listen to the violin music, I avoid the 1801s as all wood (no MDF) are favored as much more natural to my ears. If I listen to a recording with heavy electric guitar, I do prefer the 1801s.  I do use wood combinations under my components to extract the sound that sounds real to me for finer tuning. I have learned that there are no absolutes in this hobby and try to avoid tube/digital/SS debates as well as wood vs MDF debates.  To my ears, each has it's strengths and weaknesses.

As I getter older and listen critically to music, I try to stay opened minded to observations by others that may not follow the current norm. I rarely rule out anything including Mr. Altmann when using wood as a tuning aid.  By the way, I have heard the Altmann Dac in a friend's system, and I will be purchasing one. It is that good as others here have noted in other threads. It might be that little piece of wood that really helps it sound good?  While I do not have critical proof that the wood does help the sound, I depend on my ears to enjoy music and real wood does make a difference here. Just my $.02.

[wildfire99]

Anyone looking to soften their harmonics with all natural wood should make sure to also check out the "Silver Rock Signature Knob", a 100% whole (wood) grain volume control knob, coated as they say several times with a C37 lacquer for the best results. What do you get by replacing your harsh sounding plastic or metal volume control knob with wood? Why, "much more open and free flowing" sound with "an improvement in resolution". Their ad says you will be shocked, and I certainly am. They're only $485, buy one now, heck, get two just in case the natural harmonics in the first one get depleted.

Anyone try to carve out a big log for a distortion-free subwoofer cabinet?

[Daygloworange]

I knew there would be a few comments like this coming. It was much too quiet, considering the topic.

I have watched this thread with interest and laughed out loud at Daygloworange's comments.

Ok. Care to be specific? Which comments cracked you up the most?

I strongly disagree with Daygloworange's observations.

Ok. Which ones?

My background includes studying and playing the violin for 20 plus years

I'm a classically trained musician (25 years) as well. I studied music privately with a violin player for over 7 years. Studied classical guitar and piano in college, semi pro musician for over 10 years. I've been recording for over 20 years and own my own fully equipped 24bit digital recording studio. I also own a period correct hand made replica of a Stradivarius violin that was made for me as a gift from a luthier friend of our family. It is authentic in every detail, including the finish.



 Now that we've gone tit for tat on credentials, can you elaborate which points I made that you disagree with.

wood and age of wood does make a difference in the sound for voice and acoustical instruments.

I never said anything to the contrary.

Try to buy a strad compared to a fender, no contest.

Try to buy a Bugatti Royale compared to a Corvette, no contest. What's that got to do with anything?

I am an 1801b owner as well as the owner of two pairs of all wood speakers, and there is a definite difference in sound between MDF/veneered speakers and an all wood speaker.

Of course there would be. I don't think anyone would think otherwise.

When I listen to the violin music, I avoid the 1801s as all wood (no MDF) are favored as much more natural to my ears. If I listen to a recording with heavy electric guitar, I do prefer the 1801s.  I do use wood combinations under my components to extract the sound that sounds real to me for finer tuning.

Wood speaker on a wood instrument, MDF/Veneer on heavy electric guitar. I see. Funny how that works out perfectly isn't it. Why wouldn't a wood speaker sound more natural on an electric guitar that's made of wood, playing through an amplifier with tubes, a wooden cabinet, and paper coned drivers? Not organic enough?

In my system, the 1801s must be tamed using softer woods placed under my components to balance the treble which can be unforgiving in harshness on certain recordings.

There's other ways to tame harshness. But in the case here, it sounds like your front end components are harsh, or the recording itself, not the 1801's, and if you are able to dull down the treble with wooden components, then that's muddying up the sound. I don't see that as realism and fidelity. And how does that square with your comments of using all wood speakers to tame harshness and add realism?

While I do not have critical proof that the wood does help the sound

 Then what is the point of your post?

I made my points based on years of trying different things. I'm not just hypothesizing.

I do have proof that all that Altmann professes is an overly romantic urban legend regarding a Fender guitar needing to be stripped of all plastic type components and coatings and replaced with wood ones in order to sound musical. Got a pen? The list is quite long of recorded examples, but I'll give you 2 quick ones right now of guys who play stock Fender Stratocasters, and have incredibly musical tone. And you'll probably even like them. They are amazing players.

Uli Jon Roth:  Beyond The Astral Skies

Eric Johnson:  Ah Via Musicom

I try to stay opened minded to observations by others that may not follow the current norm. I rarely rule out anything including

Really? Sounds like you've ruled out everything I've talked about in regards to Fender Strats, and you haven't told us about your knowledge on these guitars. Altmann provides no proof of the supremacy of his altered guitar versus the stock one. He just shows a picture of it....

Nuff said. I look forward to your response.

Cheers

[richidoo]

It's about wood, not guitars. Altmann's point is about the wood, and the finish, not how to build a great guitar.     ... and no, I don't "wanna talk Fenders," this thread is hijacked with guitar talk.

Dayglow, sharing the specifics of your conclusions formed in your experiments with musical instrument materials would better help answer bluesky's original question and be very interesting to me, I would especially love to hear about the brass guitar!!! Then we could better consider your qualifications to blast Altmann based on your own works. 

Whether Altmann is "right or wrong" in his beliefs, he still wins because he is convincing others with his popular website that he is right. I allow Altmann's opinion to be what it is and have chosen to find a way to fit it into my understanding of the "science of sonorous materials."     Will I be making guitars or violins and painting them with C37 resin? Never in a million years!  But after reading his site, I will never refinish my trumpet with clear urethane or scratch proof diamond like some kind of bathtub faucet. I know from experience that plain dirty brass sounds best, with silver plating different but equal in some others' tastes. Gold plate is less good, thick lacquer is less good still, and the plastic crap they spray nowadays to appease OSHA and stockholders is doodoo.

Altmann stripped the thick plastic encasement off of a plywood Squier toy, not a lacquered vintage Stratocaster. I'm not surprised at all if it sounded better. How could it not? And who cares!? To me it is a merely there to make a point about wood in order to sell more DACs! Nobody brings guitars to him for restoration!

There can never be proof of any kind that one wood, one driver cone, one conductor metal, one wood paint, sounds better than another to everyone, or to anyone for that matter. Taste and genetics preclude agreement. There can only be opinions and convincing marketing attempts to promote one's beliefs. There are no absolutes in this hobby. To deny that is to avoid enjoying the diversity and creativity that this hobby has to offer.

Stradivari gave his secrets to the italian worms. Until a modern instrument is made that exceeds to most laymen's ears the sound of Strad's creations, no self appointed "expert" will believe that the mystery is solved and NYT will keep writing articles stirring the smoldering coals. To speculate on what is in the recipe is just another fun hobby. Let it be fun! Some people will play with wood, others sticky goo. Would we rather they not try? Imagine every concert hall filled with stradivari instruments. It's worth a little suffering the kooks!

Most people enjoy the BYOB website. There is a lot to learn there. Those that do "drink that snake oil"  are well rewarded. I too am buying his DAC after hearing it recently. But you're not alone, most people's knee jerk reaction is similar when long held beliefs are challenged so provocatively. But there are people of the seeking type who relish that kind of presentation, especially when the sky high claims are exceeded by the performance of the product being promoted, which Altmanns' clearly do. The DAC is a major step forward in digital playback over anything else commercially available. If wood painted with pine sap makes any contribution to the end result, no matter how small, then it is absolutely right. Credentials mean squat, it's the results that matter. Strad had no paper credentials. Altmann has tons, so does my neighbor, but uses his EE creds. to tell a bunch of punks to get back to work. It means nothing in the real world of creating value and selling it in business.
Rich

[gooberdude]

If we're just discussing materials for building speaker boxes, please remember that MDF is 20% Formaldehyde, and the dust can be be very bad on our lungs & brains.

[WEEZ]

I'm confused...(as usual )

Are we talking about speaker cabinets or equipment platforms?

What do musical intruments have to do with either of those? Nothing.

 

WEEZ

[Daygloworange]

It's about wood, not guitars. Altmann's point is about the wood, and the finish, not how to build a great guitar.     ... and no, I don't "wanna talk Fenders," this thread is hijacked with guitar talk. 

This thread hasn't been hijacked. You posted a link to Altmann's site with all his theories of the amazing qualities of wood and it's application, and I'm debunking it. Dave Ellis loathes people full of marketing B.S., and this is a whopper of an example.

http://mother-of-tone.com/lacquer.htm

And what are you talking about? Altmann's point is precisely what a great guitar needs to be built like.

Dayglow, sharing the specifics of your conclusions formed in your experiments with musical instrument materials would better help answer bluesky's original question and be very interesting to me, I would especially love to hear about the brass guitar!!! Then we could better consider your qualifications to blast Altmann based on your own works.

I already gave you my conclusions of the most important factors. Add to my aforementioned qualifications is the fact that I'm a cabinetmaker with over 20 years experience. I could make any guitar I wanted, out of any materials I wanted, and finish them with any finish I wanted, and with any parts and electronics I wanted. My guitars are all customized to some degree, but are essentially still very much faithfull to a stock Fender. My favorite wood for the body is alder, just like what most Fender's are. Ash bodies are a close second. I prefer one piece maple necks. Here are some of the "experiments" still kicking around in my shop.

I would especially love to hear about the brass guitar!!!

I made a pickguard from some brass many years ago. I don't really recall how much of an effect it had on the sound. But it didn't make me want to use one, so it probably didn't do anything special.

Whether Altmann is "right or wrong" in his beliefs, he still wins because he is convincing others with his popular website that he is right. I allow Altmann's opinion to be what it is and have chosen to find a way to fit it into my understanding of the "science of sonorous materials

That's not a very compelling defense of Altmann's theories. But a very good example of your perspective on the matter.

There can never be proof of any kind that one wood, one driver cone, one conductor metal, one wood paint, sounds better than another to everyone, or to anyone for that matter.

That's not what Altmann would want you to believe. Quite the contrary, he thinks he's got it all figured out. Here is a quote from his website:

During the course of this site, I will disclose many of my findings and introduce a couple of products that impressively document the validity of new concepts for audio interpretation.


He doesn't follow through with his promise of impressive documentation on the stuff I've read and talked about. The page on the effects of lacquer is total garbage. I could pick that page apart line by line and talk volumes on why it's total B.S. 
It's not even worth talking about.

Credentials mean squat, it's the results that matter.

Really??  Hmmm, then why question mine??

Gold plate is less good, thick lacquer is less good still, and the plastic crap they spray nowadays to appease OSHA and stockholders is doodoo.

And you've arrived at this conclusion how??  What tests and experiments have you done to reach these conclusions?
Could you have come to your conclusions the same way Altmann and his buddy Dieter Ennemoser (inventor of the C 37 lacquer) have?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31494.80

We had a little fun with that guy as well.

 Altmann is trying to herald the use of woods as an additive element in making electronics musical. He even goes so far as to give it a name " Mother of Tone", as if it were an established law of physics, or some established movement. He also makes many claims that aren't possible. His Altmann acoustic panel claims are a total joke as well.
The more I read on his site, the less I want to discuss this.

http://mother-of-tone.com/acoustic_panel.htm

Back to the original question. The bottom line is simple. Audio components, be it, speakers, CDP's, pre-amps, amplifiers, TT's, or anything pertaining to an audio system, are not musical instruments. Their theoretical purpose is to try and recreate electronic signals into sounds transparently, without coloration.
Building speakers out of materials that resonate on their own is detrimental to acheiving the theoretical goals of transparency and realism. The goal is to only have the drivers resonating, not to have the enclosure ringing as a soundboard.

I know that Dave Ellis has gone to many great lengths to get the most out of his speakers. He has tried a million different things, and gone to great lengths to try and figure out the why's and how's. If there's an improvement to be had, I'm sure he'll eventually uncover it. If building speaker enclosures out of wood sounded better, he would be doing it, and recommending it.

I agree with his feelings that a concrete enclosure could potentially be quite a step up from MDF. I might try it one day.

Cheers

[Daygloworange]

That myth has been perpetuated for decades, and as historical information has been uncovered and experiments have shown, there was nothing special about the finishes used by Stradivarius or others. Many years ago, I believed that it could hold some of the answers, but as it turns out, there is no truth to the matter.

Cool - great stuff!! 

I figured that if several folks were pursuing different instrument finishes that they were significant.  Hm, do you think they engaged in this dialogue solely for marketing?

Dave

Dave,

Sorry, I totally missed giving you an answer.

I don't know of anyone other than a few individuals actively pursuing different finishes in efforts to heighten the performance of instruments. If there was a true performance gain, musical instrument manufacturers would want to know about it. It's a very competitive market out there, and for expensive instruments, the clients are well educated, and very picky about sound.

Where the origins of the Stradivarius finish myth started, I don't know, but one could speculate that it dates back many generations, when there was no science to explain why there would be so much difference between the sound produced by a  Strad vs. another seemingly similar contemporary violin. Violins are small, fragile, very lightweight instruments. Their soundboards are thin and very resonant. One might theorize that they are of similar dimensions and construction, similar woods, what else would be a variable?  Finishes were not store bought pre made back then, they were mixed from individual resins, binders, and solvents by the person applying them. It's been discovered that the Strads were finished with the same finishes that furniture makers were using in that area of Italy at the time. Nothing special.

Legends and myths are easy to perpetuate when knowledge of something is beyond the average persons general knowledge.

As a youngster, I even thought that the finish might be a very important factor in the sound of acoustic instruments, but as I have accumulated many instruments myself, I have learned that differences in sonic characteristics, pitches and resonances have more to do with the inhomogeneous aspects of wood. That is the huge variable, not the finish.

Another example. My brother is a drummer. He's been playing since we were kids. He's owned a number of drum kits. As a result, I also play drums. He's owned a number of drum kits. We use to have a rehearsal space. I also played with other musicians as well. We would sometimes have his 2 drum kits, and another drummers drum kits in the same room. Drums sound very different. Even same sizes shells, with identical heads.

Double bass drum kits are very interesting. The two kick drums rarelysound the same. It's usually bim/bom/bim/bom. Never bom/bom/bom/bom. Drummers usually have a preference for one over the other as the main kick drum. Considering their method of construction, I still to this day have a hard time understanding how there could be such a difference.

DW Drums actually goes to added effort of stamping the inside of their shells with a pitch reference. So that they can match bass drums, and in the event of one needing to be replaced, the owner can be somewhat guaranteed that the replacment will be very similar sounding to the one it is replacing and will be a good match.

My brothers current drums are Yamaha Custom Power Recording. They are birch shells. The bass drums ( 24"x 18")were custom made as they are not a stock item, even from the manufacturer. They arrived together 3 months after the other shells. They were manufactured together. They do not sound the same. At all. We tried everything possible, and there is no way to make them sound similar. It's actually very frustrating and disappointing. I have recorded his drums many times and have his whole drum kit recorded as digital samples in my samplers.

How does this relate to speakers? Simple. Crossovers are designed and tested on a speaker in an enclosure. The crossover is then refined and measured, listened to, and evaluated, and revoiced if necessary. If you now change the properties of the enclosure, it could make quite a difference in the performance of the speaker. With MDF, it's a homogeneous product. There isn't going to be a huge difference from one board to another. With wood, the differences are going to be huge. Even from one board to the other, even from the same tree. That's the reality. With real wood, it would be a moving target. You could never feel confident that there would be any consistency.

People go to great lengths to match tolerances of tweeters, resistors, caps, inductors to very small values and percentages. It's virtually impossible to do anything resembling that with wood.

As far as using wooden pieces under equipment, you would have to have consistency of resonances to convince me about their efficacy. If you used 3 footers under a component and they happened to have resonant frequencies of C,C#,D, well that's 3 notes that are apart by one semitone. That's dissonance. Play those 3 keys together on a piano and it doesn't sound very harmonious. And this is going to add beautifully to a components performance?

To say I'm skeptical of that, is an understatement.

If anything, because of the fact that the cellular structure of wood is basically a stack of tubes, wood in the application of footers and so on, would probably act more like a decoupler/absorber/isolator. A subtractive element, not an additive one.

Cheers

[BrianM]

It's been discovered that the Strads were finished with the same finishes that furniture makers were using in that area of Italy at the time. Nothing special.

And it's true the furniture from that era does sound pretty unremarkable..   

Dayglow is talking serious sense here.  Using a piece of wood to make a DAC sound better?  Mother of Tone?  Wood additives?  C'mon.  I smell something flaky.  If the Altmann DAC kicks ass it ain't the board.

As stated the only thing resonating should be the drivers, ideally.  And that being said I think in general too much gets made of trying to police teeny tiny vibrations here and there.  The gear I own now is noticeably less sledgehammer proof than what I had before, but produces sounds that are far cleaner and clearer.  It just can't be the ambient materials dictating these things.

The MDF for speakers issue sounds spot on to me, too.  MDF also doesn't change over time as wood might.