[Midnite Mick]

Which do you think can have the most significant effect on how the system sounds?

I ask because I have been demoing some power cords here that have made a HUGE difference on my tube monoblocks (a pair with Oyaide ends and a pair with Acrolink ends). I also have a pair of Eichmann silver banana terminated speaker cables that did make a difference but the differences weren't as large.

Thanks,
Mike

[weirdo]

happy for you and strange to hear that aftermarket  PC's had that much of an effect for you. How does it sound now? If it kicks you might want to stop while you are ahead of the game.

Changing IC's and speaker wire may not make the huge differences you might think. I was thinking that changeouts in the IC and cables at this point would make less of an "improvment" and more of a "noticeable difference".  After a lot of playing around ( a coulpe of years in fact, with ss and tube gear) , I found the IC's and cables that do not accentuate any part of the spectrum and present the music cleanly without emphasis are the ones you will stick with for a long time and you don't have to spend a lot of money to achieve that. good results and cable prices are not porportional. Not much help I'm afraid but my 2c anyway. 

[Double Ugly]

I've experienced significant sonic improvement - and detriment - via all of the above, Mike.  I'm not sure there's a definitive answer to be had.

FWIW, speaker cables have made the least difference in my experience, but maybe I haven't found the perfect SCs yet.  On the flip side, ICs and PCs have proven the bane of my financial existence. 

-Jim

PS - Might the PCs you're auditioning happen to be from Black Sand?  If so, I had them for a while and know precisely what you're experiencing.

[Midnite Mick]

No Double.  I purchased the BS silver ref MKV in the group buy over at the Nervosa and they did not work out for me at all.  I hate to post anything negative as John was very nice to me and treated me very well but that PC caused a collapse of the soundstage and loss in dynamics (probably related).  The sound just stayed more at the speakers. I ended up selling them for little loss so no foul.

With the ones I have now it has had a total opposite effect.  The sound is so much bigger, sweeter, and 3 dimensional.  I just was surprised that the PC made that much of a difference.  I previously thought that interconnects would make more of a difference.  I guess it depends on other circumstances as well I guess.

You said you had them for a while...what are you using now?

Thanks,
Mike

[TheChairGuy]

Midnite Mike: No speaker cable made much of a difference (Kimber 4TC, Monster, CAT6e, Radio Shack 12 ga., 16ga zip cord, LAT International, SS-1000D, Extension cord (Orchard Supply, not Home Depots vaunted one), 12ga and 13ga magnet wire (cryo'ed and vanilla) and others I can't remember.  There were sideways moves all - some were relatively better, some worse 

Then, came the Alpha-Core MI-2 (copper/10ga).  It sounds different because it really is. The dialetric is razor thin (and NOT teflon) so there is little interaction with the current carrying wire and it is and has the lowest inductance known (well, maybe the Townshend Isolda is low inductance as they use inline 'pods', like MIT, on their cables...but they are like $100 per foot  )  If you scamper over and read Steve Nugent's White Paper at www.EmpiricalAudio.com you'll read his findings about the importance of low inductance speaker and power cables.

The flip side to high inductance is very high capacitance, but Alpha-Core kindly provides a speaker-side Zobel network so that your amp doesn't oscillate driving those very high capacitance loads (and they will...a couple of my amps did driving the Kimber 4TC's which have less capacitance than the Alpha-Core Goertz's). My MI-2's are only 5' per side...but would otherwise likely kill my vintage tube amps.  With the Zobels, it is no issue whatsoever.

Pricing is reasonable, too, used or new.  I had mine cryo'ed for $35.00 more at www.cryo-parts.com....I didn't notice a difference afterwards.  They are the best I've owned either way.  I've stopped my search at that (2 years now and happy)

I've yet to find an IC or PC that fully satisfies me as the Alpha-Core does as a speaker cable......the Alpha-Core IC was good, but fell short overall.  If you further read Steve Nugent's White Paper...you'll see high capacitance is very bad for an IC. 

Smart fella' that Steve....he helped design the original Pentium chip at Intel as a budding engineer there years ago.

His cables are likely great - they're just more than I want to spend on cables to try 'em.  Super easy and communicative guy, too 

John / TCG

[Midnite Mick]

Thanks John.

Mike

[Philistine]

Hi Mike,
I've settled on Gregg Straley's speaker cables and IC's, compared them with Acoustic Zen, Zu, Nordost and they sounded significantly better than anything else.  The impact on my system was very significant.  The only anomaly is that different IC's between my Modwright CDP and MF amp have minimal impact. 
I found PC's made a change in my system, they had less impact than IC's and speaker cables but enough to be significant - I liked Acoustic Zen products and have a couple of the Zu Mother's.  I struggle to spend too much of my budget in this area, but would like to try some of the more exotic PC's at some stage just for fun.

Guess the bottom line is that system synergy/room/ears all come into play, what works in one system might not work in another and the best path forward is to get demo's from dealers/manufacturers until you find a combo that works.

Phil     

[Midnite Mick]

Yeah, I guess there are a lot of factors posed in my question.

What if one had a low voltage at their outlet would the thicker guage wire help to offset this?

Thanks Phil.

Mike

[DSK]

I agree with other posters that there seems to be a synergy factor involved and results may differ depending on the sensitivity of your components to inductance, capacitance, etc. I also agree that performance doesn't necessarily follow price.

I have experienced relatively large differences with PCs and ICs, but only very minor ones with SCs (including bi-wiring).

[Double Ugly]

No Double.  I purchased the BS silver ref MKV in the group buy over at the Nervosa and they did not work out for me at all.  I hate to post anything negative as John was very nice to me and treated me very well but that PC caused a collapse of the soundstage and loss in dynamics (probably related). 

Interesting.  You're the first I've known who didn't benefit from the addition of Mk. Vs.  The improvement in my system wasn't subtle, and they replaced much more expensive cables I'd been using for over 2 years.

Synergy is king.

You said you had them for a while...what are you using now?

I'm using my old cables until the SP Tech Revelations arrive.  Afterwards I'll have John send the Statement Ones again so I can determine which works best with the speakers I'll be listening to for the next 40 years. 

-Jim

[TheChairGuy]

I really think the term 'synergy' is more of a synonym for 'guessing in place of knowledge'...it's vastly overused by the audiophool community.

There are reasons, mostly electrical and some mechanical, why components and cables 'synergize' well.  Most are known, many are still to be discovered and a few are debated.  That said, most of the reasons are already known....you just need to find them and put them to proper use.

I'm certainly not inferring I have reasons to all, nor understand them all, but once you make serious efforts to understand the way electrical and mechanical realities work, 'synergy' no longer becomes a relevant option to use in your audio pursuits. 

I think of synergy as dumb luck in place of genuine knowledge (again, which I do not want to come off as understanding it all, either  )

There - I've wanted to say that for awhile.  Don't mean to even remotely sound like a know-it-all, I just think it's just inferred more often than it need to among audiophools. Sorry, it's my flashpoint - I'll slink away quietly now 

[DSK]

I really think the term 'synergy' is more of a synonym for 'guessing in place of knowledge'...it's vastly overused by the audiophool community.

There are reasons, mostly electrical and some mechanical, why components and cables 'synergize' well.  Most are known, many are still to be discovered and a few are debated.  That said, most of the reasons are already known....you just need to find them and put them to proper use.

I'm certainly not inferring I have reasons to all, nor understand them all, but once you make serious efforts to understand the way electrical and mechanical realities work, 'synergy' no longer becomes a relevant option to use in your audio pursuits. 

I think of synergy as dumb luck in place of genuine knowledge (again, which I do not want to come off as understanding it all, either  )

There - I've wanted to say that for awhile.  Don't mean to even remotely sound like a know-it-all, I just think it's just inferred more often than it need to among audiophools. Sorry, it's my flashpoint - I'll slink away quietly now 

'Synergy' is a positive end result caused partly by the complementery electrical and mechanical properties of the devices in question. Whether this is achieved by dumb luck or the application of knowledge does not change the synergistic result.

I agree that most people strike synergisitc combinations more through luck than knowledge. Sometimes it will be through some trial and error (of their own or fellow forum members) ... for example, after trying a few different silver ICs and copper ICs, a person may realise that in their system, they prefer silver. They still may not understand the science behind it, but they are likely to make a better choice (for them) next time armed with this knowledge.

Whether by knowledge or trial and error, we all seek synergy. It is the most synergistic combinations that lead to the optimisation of our systems and our enjoyment and involvement in the music. Aside from personal interaction, the pursuit of the most synergistic combinations (for our tastes) is the main reason for audio forums. So, although I agree that synergy is usually achieved more through luck than knowledge, I don't really think the term 'synergy' is overused in this hobby.

...Now, if only I could find an emoticon of a worm dangling on a hook 

[Double Ugly]

I really think the term 'synergy' is more of a synonym for 'guessing in place of knowledge'...it's vastly overused by the audiophool community.

Maybe, but I don't agree.  My beliefs are more closely aligned with DSK when he says -

'Synergy' is a positive end result caused partly by the complementery electrical and mechanical properties of the devices in question.  Whether this is achieved by dumb luck or the application of knowledge does not change the synergistic result.

and...

So, although I agree that synergy is usually achieved more through luck than knowledge, I don't really think the term 'synergy' is overused in this hobby.

But if you ever offer classes on finding these "mostly electrical and some mechanical" reasons components and cables "'synergize'", or perhaps how we can all begin making "serious efforts to understand the way electrical and mechanical realities work", I'll give attendance serious consideration.

And finally, no, you don't sound like a know-it-all, not in the least.   

-Jim

[tanchiro58]

Changing IC's and speaker wire may not make the huge differences you might think. I was thinking that changeouts in the IC and cables at this point would make less of an "improvment" and more of a "noticeable difference".  After a lot of playing around ( a coulpe of years in fact, with ss and tube gear) , I found the IC's and cables that do not accentuate any part of the spectrum and present the music cleanly without emphasis are the ones you will stick with for a long time and you don't have to spend a lot of money to achieve that. good results and cable prices are not porportional. Not much help I'm afraid but my 2c anyway.

I totally agree with weirdo. When I hook the "good" AC cord (it is costly too) to my tube amp the sound is more dramatically degraded (dull and no taste at all) than the stock cord. Right now I even took away the power conditioner from my system the sound has better improvement. Why? Maybe it depends on the audio component's builder. I have once heard from a DIY amp builder said that too much filtering would help to lower the AC noise but also make the sound change or might degrade a "good sound."

But for digital or analog sources the uses of best AC cords are very helpful to lower noises or jitter (maybe!).

[TheChairGuy]

Jim/DU - I won't be teaching any, trust me 

I do find it deplorable that review mags and manufacturers both give little basic electrical and construction parameters of cables.  It's not hard to measure capacitance, resistance and inductance, nor say the thickness of dielectric and material of it.  Heck, some makers won't even say what the wire is made from (silver, copper, etc) or if it's shielded or not 

I think if everybody knew at least those three electrical parameters and thickness and material of dielectric.....their may be a fairly clear consensus of opinion on one particular cable or another, and why (for instance - we might find that, lo and behold, ALL IC's with particular 5 characteristics are liked above all others...then it's just a matter of finding the cables that fit those 5 parameters most closely, at the lowest cost, and buy from among them)  . But, for a manufacturer to give real information like that it removes the smoke-screen and 'voodoo' involved.

Let's face it, the more informed you are about any subject - the less likely you are to make a purchase of something overpriced. Isn't the Internet itself rather democratizing that way - you have the information on a wider variety of things than you did 10 years ago - it puts real power back in the  hands of people (because of ebay, shopping bots, blogs, emails, forums, etc). It's not in most hi-fallutin' cable manufacturers best interests to give you those measurements    I'm waving a very general wand, not all are so nefarious by any means, but in general for cable makers, too much information is often counter to their profit goals 

Props go out to Alpha-Core, and Harmonic Technology for providing real basic measurements and understanding of their design parameters.  Here's a typical fine one from www.Harmonictech.com:

Pro-Silway MK III + Technical Data
Descriptions                      RCA Terminations XLR Terminations
Capacitance per foot                     20 pF            21 pF
Inductance per foot                     0.48 uH          0.41 uH
Resistance per foot                    0.009 Ohm       0.008 Ohm

Because the 2-channel market is very small in the US, our little hobby can't support 'real' mags with serious circulation numbers and a home base where basic tests are performed.  So, we are left with a variety of very nice online mags that give their subjective opinions.....but, not much fact or 'substance'.   Stereophile is about the last mag that gives measurements of any sort now...and it's pale next to what was once offered in Stereo Review, Audio, and others of days gone by.  France, UK, Japan - with smaller homes and disposable incomes on average - still have fairly active two channel markets (homes/rooms are smaller on average, so investing in 7.1 systems are relatively rarer than here in US) and have two channel mags with some good measurements of components and cables still (and a bit less subjectivity).

You get increasingly better measurements of every kind from video mags (as they have a true base of operations to perform these and they have massive popularity).  But, of course they are so dependent on the very makers to support their publication, it's rare as hen's teeth to see a biting review 

I'm not really complaining (honest) - I'm just citing realities.  The mags don't measure what they should, the cable manufacturers don't want to give you measurements...so we are all left to ponder, buy a lot and sell at a loss in hopes of finding some pixieland perfect cable eventually  .   

[1000a]

the cable manufacturers don't want to give you measurements...so we are all left to ponder, buy a lot and sell at a loss in hopes of finding some pixieland perfect cable eventually  .   

ditto this is absolutely deplorable and some other words I will not type.

I have come to a place of realizing the reason this one sounds better than that one is all based in the science for lack of a better word.  it is simply a better match for my gear or even simpler it just flat out carries less distortion than X wire.  I have read many times That all wires have distortion inherirent in them or the design, I simply want the cheapest that gets out of the way so I can hear at least what the gear sounds like and ideally the music.

I quickly had this point driven home for me when I made a DIY mag wire IC with RS screw RCAs with rubber and cheap metal, not elegant or well designed as I could tell- it still completely blew away a PS Audio extreme statement or what ever it was called- in every single parameter.  Of course PS Audio like many do not really give yoy the info just the romance and thats c----. (and its exactly this kinda of behavior that kept me from buying their new Duet power contitioners) sorry you blew my trust I will do something else with that department.

I have some very basic power conditioning and have been studing articles old and new for quite awhile it seems (not necessarily everybody) but alot and as I study so and so's comments in 2005 about X by 2006 he has decided ulitimately X is some how degrading the sound of his system- this also seems it might be a bit of a merry go round they would prefer we stay on (even though the very nature of trying to apply the product to the line is may be flawed from the get go) hold the flames, I am still new.

While trying to DIY various cables I have studied the AQ website to death cause they are one of the very few who will even tell you the sizes and qaunties of the wires per cable.  I also like the fact their statements went something like this all wire distorts we believe using this vs that yada yada.
So I would use their ideas designs as a starting point fiquring they were a decent reasonably honest example.

I am learning far more by making DIY - SC, PC and IC than I will ever learn willy nelly trying this that and the other at stupid prices and a lot of romancing text from said makers, rally its insane for me to go about  achieving system harmony - guessing based on that kinda info.

I by no means have my system where I want it but by using the same wire through out at least I can establish some consistant usable knowledge.  I understand cable people not showing there cut away designs but yes give us the electrical parameters - we can just cut to the chase. (honestly I think many of them not all, hide these numbers with good reason- endless future sales)

So yes I have learned with their wire and my own different wire sounds different but why?  give me good very open musical defining good tone good stage tight bass good mids and so on- it does not have to be the very last word in perfect finese I may better achieve that doing room treatments and looking seriously at otther areas of the system.

While I guess I am ranting again whats with a product line composed of 15 diffrent levels of cables- good better best maybe but 15 levels of improvement from say 150. to 3,500.? 

Before it was some search for a magic bullet of a sort at least now I realize there is no majic bullet its all about me thinking in terms of the system as whole.  Seeing that the PS audio IC clearly colored and covered up the potential of my amp and source makes me extremely skeptical when X company says try this in your system.  I get the idea when I try this or that in my system I may infact (at least think) I like it better than before.  but usually I probably just accentuated this or that and am at first happy and later seeking to fix something else I notice is out of whack.  For now good reasonably priced cables that deliver most all of it (maybe not the last word in each department / parameter from the wall to the speakers but in a balanced way will help me far more in the long run.

Unless I missed it I have a volt meter - can anyone post a measuring guide for Dummies for SCs, ICs and PCs and possibly what would be the goals we might generally aspire to as a lose rule of thumb.  I am thinking even the idiots guide to measurements for those electrically stupid?