[zybar]

Sounds like the same comparison we did at your house George awhile back.....

Ring a bell?



George

[macrojack]

Clearly the VMPS is not a speaker to be approached by a beginner "leaner". In the photo furnished here one can see that even the talents of our best "leaner" are stretched a bit. Naturally he makes the Salk look like it was made for that purpose. What ease! What nonchalance!

I'm under 5'5" tall. No question about it --- I'd choose the Salks.

[Housteau]

Since VMPS speakers were shown as an example, that brings up something else that I don't think has been mentioned enough, if at all.  Some speakers are infinitely adjustable by the user to mate as seamlessly as possible with that particular room and associated equipment.  Sometimes just finding the right positioning within the room can be an extended project.  Add to that infinite adjustability and it can take quite a while before one can get the very best out of a speaker system like this.  As a result, quick A B type testing would not reveal any real truth.

[TONEPUB]

I'm not sure what truth there is to be revealed.

Considering that I've never heard two pairs of speakers sound exactly the
same, to me it's more like buying a piece of art.  A speaker to me is really
the designers interpretation of what music sounds like to them.

You either buy into Richard Vandersteen's vision, or Gayle Sanders vision
or Dave Wilson or Danny Ritchie or whoever the designer may be.

Put ten audiophiles in a room and I guarantee they will all like something
different. One may want pinpoint imaging, another huge soundstage, another
bass, another dynamics while another may want detail that peels the paint
of the walls with yet another wanting a very romantic, warm sound.

For my money, I just find the shootouts and the like pointless.  If you have
a pair of Wilson Sophias and you love them, you won't care what the shootouts
turn up.  Same thing if you have a pair of Rogers LS3/5a's or a pair of vintage
quads or some Lowthers.

Me, I like Martin Logans and I like mini monitors a lot.  I'm sure all of you
have your own favorites.

Housteau made an excellent point about adjustability.  When I had a pair of
Vandersteen 2Ce's, a friend who also had a pair would come over to my house and
turn the mid and treble control as far up as they would go (I used to have em
in the middle) and say "now your speakers sound correct" but to me they
sounded way to bright.

So who is correct?

[Housteau]

I'm not sure what truth there is to be revealed.

The truth to me would be the best a particular component had to offer within a particular system.  Some components, especially speakers can require quite an investment in time to find out what that is.  Cutting that time short often will not reveal the best that could have been possible, and leave someone with a false impression.

However, how much time is enough, and how much is practical?  I kept my last set of speakers for 17 years and was still making new discoveries with them nearly up to the time I let them go  .

[TONEPUB]

I would agree with that to a certain extent.

For example, when I had my Vandersteen 2Ce signatures about 5 years ago,
they were great speakers for what they were. Once I got a few room treatments
up and started upgrading the rest of my system, there was definitely a point
where I could not wring any more sound out of them.

I know with my Tetra 506's in one system and the ML Summits in the other,
they both have enough resolution for me to hear changes downstream.

And this leads to improvements as I can afford them....

Which can also drive one to madness!  But thankfully, it's what I do for
a living so it is actually a lot of fun to hear the subtle differences between
speakers.

While I really love my two reference speakers, there have been plenty
of speakers that I have enjoyed listening to as well.  There's a lot of good
stuff out there these days!

[James Romeyn]

FWIW: Since the first time I heard the RM30C I have sung it's praises & stated that 40 had outlived its usefullness.  In fact, I believe it's a dead dinosaur that hasn't fallen over yet to decay.  The 40s symmetrical woofers provide a weired phasey presentation & way too much ceiling bounce, esp w/ the midbass driver up top (I think VMPS may have finally taken my advice & not have the midbass driver up top.)  I have heard other people who owned both agree.  Remember also I've never recommended the RM30M because frankly, the enclosure is too small for 3 active bass drivers, producing a too high Q (the proof is no lower bass cutoff for the M vs. C.)  A too high Q makes for a ringing bass quality. 

George said people including himself preferred his Salk vs. the 30 minus CDW, but I don't know if they were C or M.  He'll post later I'm sure. 

The CDW was released way too early, before the EQ issue was fixed fall '06.  But since then, especially after hearing the Salk HT1-QW, my personal opinion is the latest VMPS RM30C CDW priced similarly to the Salk, would sonically knock it out, if the electronics were up to the task.

Based on the opinion of TRL, the maker of my CD source, no computer based CD playback is even close to my CD source quality.  If that is correct, the current RM30C is better than may be revealed by an inferior source such as a computer based system.  The 30s apparently sounded decent at RMAF '06, but still, by my best recall, the speakers could use better ancialliary gear.  Along these lines: a few months ago I got a new $7500 reference preamp.  The sound quality jumped up so high that I prefer the model below the 30s to the 30s w/o the preamp.  The front end gear does make as much difference as Linn's Ivor Tiefunbrun said it does about 40 years ago.        

That's only my opinion.  Others may & surely will disagree.   

Based on this, IMO the above comparison of the 40 & Salk is completely irrelevant in today's current marketplace.

It's interesting that George, a moderator who is obviously extremely interested in the hobby/sport, refused VMPS' offer to audition the current technology free & w/o obligation. 

There may be obvious reasons for the refusal, such as a distaste for Brian, &/or QC issues, which I fully understand & sympathize with.   Considering George's past undertakings to compare equipment these are the only good reasons I can think of, other than maybe being uncertain of the outcome vs. his Salk's.

If any offense is taken here, I apologize beforehand & will afterward too.  If I may say, George, w/ all due respect, you are beating that dead horse way too long already.  You should, IMO, get over it.  If not, that's fine too.      

[zybar]

FWIW: Since the first time I heard the RM30C I have sung it's praises & stated that 40 had outlived its usefullness.  In fact, I believe it's a dead dinosaur that hasn't fallen over yet to decay.  The 40s symmetrical woofers provide a weired phasey presentation & way too much ceiling bounce, esp w/ the midbass driver up top (I think VMPS may have finally taken my advice & not have the midbass driver up top.)  I have heard other people who owned both agree.  Remember also I've never recommended the RM30M because frankly, the enclosure is too small for 3 active bass drivers, producing a too high Q (the proof is no lower bass cutoff for the M vs. C.)  A too high Q makes for a ringing bass quality. 

George said people including himself preferred his Salk vs. the 30 minus CDW, but I don't know if they were C or M.  He'll post later I'm sure. 

The CDW was released way too early, before the EQ issue was fixed fall '06.  But since then, especially after hearing the Salk HT1-QW, my personal opinion is the latest VMPS RM30C CDW priced similarly to the Salk, would sonically knock it out, if the electronics were up to the task.

Based on the opinion of TRL, the maker of my CD source, no computer based CD playback is even close to my CD source quality.  If that is correct, the current RM30C is better than may be revealed by an inferior source such as a computer based system.  The 30s apparently sounded decent at RMAF '06, but still, by my best recall, the speakers could use better ancialliary gear.  Along these lines: a few months ago I got a new $7500 reference preamp.  The sound quality jumped up so high that I prefer the model below the 30s to the 30s w/o the preamp.  The front end gear does make as much difference as Linn's Ivor Tiefunbrun said it does about 40 years ago.       

That's only my opinion.  Others may & surely will disagree.   

Based on this, IMO the above comparison of the 40 & Salk is completely irrelevant in today's current marketplace.

It's interesting that George, a moderator who is obviously extremely interested in the hobby/sport, refused VMPS' offer to audition the current technology free & w/o obligation. 

There may be obvious reasons for the refusal, such as a distaste for Brian, &/or QC issues, which I fully understand & sympathize with.   Considering George's past undertakings to compare equipment these are the only good reasons I can think of, other than maybe being uncertain of the outcome vs. his Salk's.

If any offense is taken here, I apologize beforehand & will afterward too.  If I may say, George, w/ all due respect, you are beating that dead horse way too long already.  You should, IMO, get over it.  If not, that's fine too.     

Jim,

First, I am not a moderator...if I was, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Second, what gear I choose to audition is my business and doesn't require that I answer to you or anybody else. 

Third, the comparison of the 40's and HT3's is relevant because it is the topic of this thread.  A member of AC was looking for info on how to compare the two speakers in his room.

Fourth, I don't own Salk HT3's anymore.  They were replaced last Fall by Vandersteen 5A's.   

I am not really sure what you think I need to get over, so I can't even comment on that.

I am glad that you are happy with your system and the components that make it up - so am I. 

The fact that we are taking different paths to reach our individual audio nirvana is the great thing about this hobby.

I am not offended by your post, but rather saddened by it. 

Why not simply enjoy your system and not feel the need to defend certain brands by attacking others? 

I apologize to Bob for crapping in his thread and won't make any more posts that aren't on topic.

George

[samplesj]

RibbonSpeakers.net aren't you a Vpms dealer?  Its hard to keep up.  You are, you aren't, you are again.  It really looks like you are except when you feel a need to praise some tech advance and then you aren't so it isn't shilling.

[macrojack]

Ribbonspeakers - I have observed the way in which people on this forum conduct themselves with admiration. We are not, however, without the occasional bad apple.
Zybar appears to me to go well out of his way to help anyone he can and he conducts himself at all times with dignity, courtesy, humility and aplomb. I would vote him among the five most liked people who participate regularly.
As one who has been treated to his caring contributions quite recently I take great exception to your cheap ass innuendo and snide comments. I don't know anything about your business but I can tell you that the chances of my finding out are dropping every time you start acting up.
VMPS is a bit of a dinosaur in my speaker directory. You might want to look up from your self-congratulatory speech writing now and again to see what some of the upstart startups have accomplished.
There are some damn sensual new kids making music that the hi fi royalty can't seem to hear.

Since you are green with envy and have a sour taste, I'm thinking you are a Granny Smith. I'm not crazy about them but they do have a nice crunch when you bite them. There are worse apples.

[James Romeyn]

FWIW: Since the first time I heard the RM30C I have sung it's praises & stated that 40 had outlived its usefullness.  In fact, I believe it's a dead dinosaur that hasn't fallen over yet to decay.  The 40s symmetrical woofers provide a weired phasey presentation & way too much ceiling bounce, esp w/ the midbass driver up top (I think VMPS may have finally taken my advice & not have the midbass driver up top.)  I have heard other people who owned both agree.  Remember also I've never recommended the RM30M because frankly, the enclosure is too small for 3 active bass drivers, producing a too high Q (the proof is no lower bass cutoff for the M vs. C.)  A too high Q makes for a ringing bass quality. 

George said people including himself preferred his Salk vs. the 30 minus CDW, but I don't know if they were C or M.  He'll post later I'm sure. 

The CDW was released way too early, before the EQ issue was fixed fall '06.  But since then, especially after hearing the Salk HT1-QW, my personal opinion is the latest VMPS RM30C CDW priced similarly to the Salk, would sonically knock it out, if the electronics were up to the task.

Based on the opinion of TRL, the maker of my CD source, no computer based CD playback is even close to my CD source quality.  If that is correct, the current RM30C is better than may be revealed by an inferior source such as a computer based system.  The 30s apparently sounded decent at RMAF '06, but still, by my best recall, the speakers could use better ancialliary gear.  Along these lines: a few months ago I got a new $7500 reference preamp.  The sound quality jumped up so high that I prefer the model below the 30s to the 30s w/o the preamp.  The front end gear does make as much difference as Linn's Ivor Tiefunbrun said it does about 40 years ago.       

That's only my opinion.  Others may & surely will disagree.   

Based on this, IMO the above comparison of the 40 & Salk is completely irrelevant in today's current marketplace.

It's interesting that George, a moderator who is obviously extremely interested in the hobby/sport, refused VMPS' offer to audition the current technology free & w/o obligation. 

There may be obvious reasons for the refusal, such as a distaste for Brian, &/or QC issues, which I fully understand & sympathize with.   Considering George's past undertakings to compare equipment these are the only good reasons I can think of, other than maybe being uncertain of the outcome vs. his Salk's.

If any offense is taken here, I apologize beforehand & will afterward too.  If I may say, George, w/ all due respect, you are beating that dead horse way too long already.  You should, IMO, get over it.  If not, that's fine too.     

Jim,

First, I am not a moderator...if I was, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Second, what gear I choose to audition is my business and doesn't require that I answer to you or anybody else. 

Third, the comparison of the 40's and HT3's is relevant because it is the topic of this thread.  A member of AC was looking for info on how to compare the two speakers in his room.

Fourth, I don't own Salk HT3's anymore.  They were replaced last Fall by Vandersteen 5A's.   

I am not really sure what you think I need to get over, so I can't even comment on that.

I am glad that you are happy with your system and the components that make it up - so am I. 

The fact that we are taking different paths to reach our individual audio nirvana is the great thing about this hobby.

I am not offended by your post, but rather saddened by it. 

Why not simply enjoy your system and not feel the need to defend certain brands by attacking others? 

I apologize to Bob for crapping in his thread and won't make any more posts that aren't on topic.

George

George
I seem to have hit a nerve & that wasn't the intent.

For you to act like someone pulled up your panties who confused "moderator" w/ "facilitator" is, as Spock would say "...quite strange..."  I'll try to find out the difference to avoid this future mistake.  In reply to

what the hell does that have to do with anything

One might reasonably conclude that facilitators have a higher interest level & are more interested even than your average audiophile in auditioning new gear at home for free.  If you require an apology for my confusion, consider this my apology.  Sorry I'm so dense.   Don't think it deserved the

hell

comment but maybe that's normal language for you.  If you write the word

hell

when you are NOT

offended

as you say, & rather you were

saddenned

I'd hate to see you get

offended

  Frankly, in my 28-1/2 years dealing w/ severe life/death situations for a living

hell

was usually more consistent w/

offended

than it was consistent w/

saddened

   

the comparison of the 40's and HT3's is relevant because it is the topic of this thread

Maybe I missed it, but before your sentence above this fact was hidden from this thread.  So my point was relevant at the time.  Also, in case anyone more nuetral than you is interested, in the picture where you apparently did your shootout, the ceiling looks to be false & is about 7' or less.  This ultra-low height so badly skews any comparison of the 40s against the 40 for the reasons I enumerated, that in my humble opinion the comparison is of the lowest in value & very highly skewed. 

I suppose I already listed the most obvious reasons you may have refused the free VMPS audition.  Readers can & will draw whatever conclusions comfort them, as usual.  This statement implies I asked you to explain yourself:

Second, what gear I choose to audition is my business and doesn't require that I answer to you or anybody else. 

Your implication is unfounded, because I never requested you explain this fact.  I did posit the only opinions explaining your refusal that I could think of.  You deny none of my points so that's of some very small comfort.  Your overly agitated response (IMO) seems quite strange.  What's that all about? 

When I wrote

get over it

I was suggesting you stop needlessly reminding readers of the outdated 40/Salk event from about 2.5 to 3 years ago.  Sorry that wasn't made clear in the earlier post.  I personally thought your post w/ the inside joke to Wolfy was pretty adolescent, you know, like little kids in high school pointing & giggling at the fat girl that everybody enjoys to hate (this is metaphor).  If you don't like my opinion just stop reading my posts whenever you desire.  I think you may be able to set it up so that my posts are invisible to you.

Only someone w/ your apparent agenda (you dislike me apparently) could state that a post containing several very strong criticisms of VMPS product & the owner is trying to

defend

that very same brand & owner

by attcking others

  That's pure nonsense.  Minus you quoting the attack & explaining your wrong accusation I'll conclude this is just another personal attack against me.  That's way off base, esp for a "facilitator".  Also you imply here I don't enjoy my system:

Why not simply enjoy your system

  Wrong again.  Don't know why you wrote that, except to assert me as some type of malcontent, another personal attack. 

Re-read my post & this time, maybe while taking a drink & breathing, you will notice my very strong criticisms of VMPS & Brian Cheney personally. 

IMO, your childish multiple re-posting of the picture of your vmps/salk comparison, especially when you are a "facilitator", especially when the 40 basically sucks anyway & has been far outclassed by vmps now, is unwelcome & rather distasteful.  You think it's cute IMO, but I don't.

I'm not sure about Salk but VMPS pays a small yearly fee that makes your words appear on the screen when you type.  VMPS deserves a more nuetral facilitator IMO.

[James Romeyn]

RibbonSpeakers.net aren't you a Vpms dealer?  Its hard to keep up.  You are, you aren't, you are again.  It really looks like you are except when you feel a need to praise some tech advance and then you aren't so it isn't shilling.

Samples
If you have "trouble keeping up", then maybe this MIGHT help increase your powers of understanding.  Try this: when the switch is UP, your lights will be ON, when the switch is CHANGED to the DOWN position (opposite of UP), the lights you may notice will be OFF.

Get you calendar & mark it this time.  I was a dealer till 'fall '04.  I decided to become a dealer again fall '06, but after remembering how awful retail was dealing w/ the likes of you, thought better about it.     

Why don't you 'splain exactly what you mean by the last sentence or we'll just figure you failed the light switch lesson? 

[James Romeyn]

...I take great exception to your cheap ass innuendo and snide comments...

M-W

innuendo: 1 a: an oblique allusion : hint, insinuation; especially : a veiled or equivocal reflection on character or reputation b: the use of such allusions <resorting to innuendo>

snide: 1 a: false, counterfeit b: practicing deception : dishonest <a snide merchant>
2: unworthy of esteem : low <a snide trick>
3: slyly disparaging : insinuating <snide remarks>

The definitions are above in case you are in the habit of using words w/ which you are unfamiliar.  If you don't quote the exact examples to back up this ridiculous & false accusation, I'll consider that from you, your accusation would be more appropriately understood as a complement.  If you take such

great exception

you'd at least think you owe all readers the pleasure of reading the exact quotes, & describing the nature of your outrage.  That is, unless, you are just making this up.      

I don't know anything about your business but I can tell you that the chances of my finding out are dropping every time you start acting up.

I have less use of your resources then I have for a billy goat with three tits. 

[samplesj]

I would like to ask that RibbonSpeakers.net's junk posts be removed from here and put into Fight Club or Limbo.  this personal attacks on others and misdirection and even semantic discussions/dictionary lookups are all too common of the style of fighting that is employed by some VPMS dealers to hide/bury any negative comments.  Since this is NOT the VMPS circle, this type of tactic shouldn't be allowed.

Note I'm actually including my reply and macrojacks (basically anything that Jim replied to).  Remove them all to somewhere else so that the real conversation may continue uninterrupted.

[James Romeyn]

I would like to ask that RibbonSpeakers.net's junk posts be removed from here and put into Fight Club or Limbo.

 What a whiner.

this personal attacks on others and misdirection and even semantic discussions/dictionary lookups

Minus you quoting examples, readers will have to assume above is a completely false accusation & personal attack against me, exactly what you accuse me of.  Exploring semantics toward a constructive goal is not off-bounds in the rules.   

all too common of the style of fighting that is employed by some VPMS dealers to hide/bury any negative comments...

You are not dealing w/ me &/or my post, but rather finding me guilty by association w/ VMPS dealers, which I'm not.  In actual fact, my reply started w/ facilitator George making a snide (M-W: "slyly disparaging") comment about the VMPS 40s, a speaker which in fact I dislike & have stated so numerous times, including in this thread. 

Here's proof your above statement is 100% falacious (I'd like to print you are lying, but I'll save that for a future reply): 

Ribbonspeakers.net wrote:

40...outlived its usefullness...a dead dinosaur that hasn't fallen over yet to decay....symmetrical woofers provide a weired phasey presentation & way too much ceiling bounce, esp w/ the midbass driver up top (I think VMPS may have finally taken my advice & not have the midbass driver up top.)...the RM30M...enclosure is too small for 3 active bass drivers, producing a too high Q (the proof is no lower bass cutoff for the M vs. C.)  A too high Q makes for a ringing bass quality....The CDW was released way too early...a distaste for Brian, &/or QC issues, which I fully understand & sympathize with.

Maybe you confuse me w/ Casler, who never really says anything bad about VMPS because that's how he feeds himself.  In that case you are forgiven, but please read more carefully next time. 

[eric the red]

I like cheese 

[TheChairGuy]

whoooooa......fortunately someone alerted me to this one.  It was looking rather sedate until a couple pages ago.

Jim/RibbonSpeakers - I'm not sure what crawled up your butt and snuggled in for the ride recently.....but, please, please, expel it 

I don't know, nor want to know, what professional or personal falling out you've had with VMPS or it's offerings (or, John Casler), but please take that diatribe elsewhere.  It's just too hard, Jim, too hard. I thought the 40's sounded fantastic at your place in Petaluma not long ago...after Brian tuned/damped them.  I don't know what happened since, nor want to.

I didn't see a thing that George/zybar has written here that merits the ass-whipping you are giving him.  He has an opinion, he stated it rather plainly....we are free to all give ours. He's also a friggin' great and helpful guy (gentleman, even)...he doesn't deserve to be shat upon.  Really. 

Please mellow out and act every bit the great guy some of us have gotten to know in person.  Your on-air persona is rough, buddy.  Please just reverse course a bit on this, BIG fella', and make my (purely voluntary, unpaid and often, unloved for) job here a bit easier 

Thanks,

John / Audio Central Slut

(btw, I like my farm animals with as many teets as possible    But, I'm Greek after all  )

[James Romeyn]

This is pretty simple.  When you make an accusation, you have to state the actual offense.

Please, someone, I've read my post before George/Zybar's use of the word "hell", which IMO started this conflagration.  Actually, my position is George's posting of the 40/salk shootout (again) & the inside joke to wolfy started it. 

I'd appreciate it if rather than reading personal reactions, I could actually read my words re-quoted to me, with a very brief explanation of the offense. 

Is that asking too much?   

John please carefully re-read my post at the top of this page.  You heard the 30Cs at my house, not the 40s, & I am always happy to have have enjoyed your company.   

[ooheadsoo]

Considering George's past undertakings to compare equipment these are the only good reasons I can think of, other than maybe being uncertain of the outcome vs. his Salk's.

Well here's my take on why everyone is jumping on you instead of George.  To go bananas over someone using the word "hell" seems overboard.  George has every right to dislike VMPS.  You could have calmly pointed out your issue in this thread regarding the ceiling height, which would ease the doubts of any potential VMPS customers.  Your response was to essentially accuse him of being too chicken to audition new VMPS speakers and is a provocative personal attack and also seems off putting considering your history as a VMPS dealer, whether or not you are a current dealer.

[TONEPUB]

The front end gear does make as much difference as Linn's Ivor Tiefunbrun said it does about 40 years ago.        

That's only my opinion.  Others may & surely will disagree.   

Here's one part of the argument/discussion I completely agree with...