What is Wrong with Solid State Owners?

audiojerry · « **on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:13 pm »

Things are kinduv dull around here, so I thought I'd start a friendly discussion. The following is meant to be a shot at the solid state crowd:

I have a theory. Bear in mind that this is a generalization and does not apply to everyone who owns SS gear:

Solid state folks rely more on measurements that tube folks. They conclude that folks who prefer tube gear have untrained ears, like to listen to "colored" music, and are not interested in accuracy. They use the measured performance of their amps to justify their ownership of said amp. If an amp doesn't measure well, it's not worth listening to. This demonstates a sense of insecurity and an unwillingness to trust one's ears and emotions to guide one's preferences.

Am I right?

Ferdi · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:24 pm »

Carlman · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:24 pm »

So, the point of the thread is to bash SS owners and a scientific approach? It could be argued that all tube people care about is tried and true circuit designs and are all close minded and blah blah blah.....

I have a SS amp and tube pre does that make me bi?

Good luck with the 'discussion'...

Marbles · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:25 pm »

In my case, you are wrong. I like the bass that solid state amps deliver, and don't like the heat tube amps give off.

If they could make a cool running tube amp with the magical tube midrange and solid bass at a "reasonable" cost, I would consider it.

Until then I'll just have to "suffer" with my Symphonic Line Kraft 400's

jackman · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:32 pm »

Hey! Does hybrid qualify as SS??? It has tubes, but isn't technically tube gear....

Anyway, I just got my new AVA gear back from Frank and Co. It has been totally taken to another level with the upgraded to T7 preamp (with new tubes and transformer) and 550HC amp. Since I got them both done at the same time, it's hard to tell what is causing the improvement (I suspect the preamp is 75% of the improvement), but it's better from top to bottom. The bass is much more powerful and controlled, highs are more extended without harshness and mids are very natural. The phono preamp and headphone amps are also much better. They also packed both units in new boxes and extended the warrantee three years.

I'll bring the stuff by your place one of these days...hopefully, before the sale at AVA is over. I don't know if AVA benefits from break-in, however, my impressions were based on listening after about 18 hours. AVA runs the stuff as a QC check, but that doesn't constitute break-in. I know Frank has some views on this subject and (I believe) he feels your ears may break (ie, you get used to the sound) in as much as or more than the gear.

Anyway, it would be good to hear this stuff along side that large amp you have. I'm not saying it's going to give you the tube sound your giant ARC pumps out, but it's much closer than the last time we listened. I will do my best to avoid controvercy the next time we get together! I promise.

Jack

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:32 pm »

Well Jerry;
Solid state folks don't like excessive even order distortion, we don't call that "musical" whatever that means.
We don't particuarly care for things that glow in the dark, and we are not nostalgic about obsolete technonolgy.
We also tend to like reliability, and when was the last time you ever heard of anyone changing their transistors because they were wearing out?
Some of us don't care for the excessivly high noise floor of tube gear because we like to hear the details of the recording, like real harmonic content.
Some us think that loudspeakers have enough distortion and why add to it.
Some of us don't like to run space heaters on hot summer days, we prefer to keep our electric bills at some reasonable amount. Given the grid problems we have just witnessed I don't feel I should add to the problem.
If the above is too rational for you: T.S.

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:33 pm »

I second Marbles rationale. I have owned tube, SS and now digital. Digital is the closest thing to that but has no magical mids. I love what tubes do for some of the freq range and hate what they do some other places. Biamping the solution? Do not know, haven't tried but sounds a bit hard and time/$$ consuming.

JoshK · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:39 pm »

Dan raises some very good points as well. While I will not comment on whether SS guys can hear excessive second order distortion (is this the glow/warmth/magic/coloration people talk of?), I do agree with the heat, the electricity problems (I live in NYC where electricity is a major price deterrant) and I have no nostalgia draws.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 08:48 pm »

Josh; It's not just second order distortion, its, 4th, 6th, 8th 10th, 12th, 14th, etc.etc.

audiojerry · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:03 pm »

Quote

If the above is too rational for you: T.S.

T.S? ouch!

Dan, I largely agree with your arguments. I do not look forward to the eventual replacement of 16 6550 output tubes. I shudder when I look at my electric bill and wonder how much my amp's 900 watt at idle power consumption has contributed to the utilities shareholders.

However, my system does not exhibit a high noise floor, and despite the above valid criticisms, I cannot give up my attachment to my amp. I'd be thrilled to find a much more economical replacement be it solid state or digital switching, or hybrid. Bottom line: it must serve the music for me - all other considerations cannot override this requirement.

Maybe Jackman's upgraded gear will change my views. His stuff was very good before the upgrades.

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:16 pm »

audiojerry - try the AVA 550ex w/a pair of Brimar tubes, very nice indeed. . .

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:17 pm »

Jerry,

It may not end up being your cup of tea but you owe it to yourself if you haven't already to give a Spectron a listen. Make sure it is a 2000 series model though. They were quite different then first production and should have changed the names (even their senior engineer thinks so).

jackman · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:28 pm »

Sorry, it's been upgraded to the 550 HC, not the EX. The tubes are the ones Frank is using these days, Tesla's. I also had the transformer changed in the preamp. Don't know what is making things sound so much better but I am confident I could tell the difference 100% of the time and prefer the new versions.

I'll mess with different tubes next, but I'll just enjoy things for now. Frank also exchanged the star head screws for standard philips. Much easier to remove cover.

J

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:36 pm »

To make things even more interesting, Jame Bongiorno is working out the final kinks in his Son of Ampilla. It is pretty much aimed at the current tube crowd that is tired of the heat/electricity bills/noise floor/etc. He has designed it to have the same step/frequency response as a high-end tube amp but without any of the normal detrimental tube effects. That's pretty much all I know/can say right now. It should be interesting and further blur the tube/SS sonic line.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

nathanm · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:38 pm »

I haven't compared enough hifi tube amps to solid state amps to really understand their differences, but I can extrapolate on what I do know for a 'fact' and that's tube guitar amps are WAY better sounding than SS guitar amps. Solid state crunch is just a completely different animal entirely. I assume this is the 'old even vs. odd harmonics issue. Seems to make sense. The only good SS distortion I've heard comes from tube emulators.

I figure that even though they are playing 'clean' the colorations or lack of colorations that people hear in hifi amps is a different degree of the same situation. For all the logistical drawbacks of tubes and the existence of modeling software and the like, perhaps this technology could be used to create SS amps with tube emulation. The fact that you are stuck with one flavor with so much of this equipment has always puzzled me. If my 130 dollar Sans Amp guitar pedal can reasonably imitate the character of a Mesa Boogie and a Marshall with the flip of one switch there's gotta be a chance to do a scaled-back version of that with hifi amps. Just a thought.

If we're talking cosmetics, tube amps win I think. But phony "prop" tubes could be installed on the SS\tube emulator amp I suggested easily.

RussKon · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:45 pm »

maybe the question should be..... how many SS owners have bothered to listen to a quality tube amp?.....

i was a solid state devottee....."the numbers had to be good" - low distortion - high power..... until i tried a tube amp.....

my preconceptions about "colored sound" were gone with the extreme level of detail that the tube amp produced in my system....

as for the rest.... current draw - heat produced - replacing tubes ..... i couldn't care less about those things - trivial details......

the only thing that really matters is HOW DOES IT SOUND??????

i would get rid of my tube amp instantly if i could find a SS amp that sounded better and i could afford..... Dan B. has a good possibility in his SS amp on his website..... i just don't happen to have $3000 laying around right now.... to replace a tube amp that sounds fantastic with a total investment of $240 (cost of amp and new set of tubes) !!!!!!!

Tyson · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 09:49 pm »

jman,
Try Siemens in the T7 instead of Brimars. Brimars were too mushy in the T7, IMO, but the Siemens gets you better midrange and all the details/slam of the EH tubes I had stock.

Just got a pair of Tesla/JJ's on loan, I'm burning them in now and will do a shootout this weekend.

But Brimar's in the 550ex are the cat's meow, IMO.

JoshK,
I heard the Spectron in a very well damped/treated room and it was a beautiful thing, one of the best setups I've ever heard. In a less that highly treated room it sounded bright. So, lots of acoustical treatment + Spectron = great sound.

Hantra · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 10:28 pm »

Quote

Solid state folks rely more on measurements that tube folks.

Wrong.

Quote

They conclude that folks who prefer tube gear have untrained ears, like to listen to "colored" music, and are not interested in accuracy.

Wrong again. I have owned several tube pieces, and I liked them. I did not consider my Audio Note colored, or innacurate. I just found something that was quite a bit more transparent, and revealed quite a bit more than I had, so I let it go. Same goes for my Kora preamp, my old Dynaco ST-70, and other tube gear I have had in the house.

Quote

They use the measured performance of their amps to justify their ownership of said amp.

Wrong again. I could tell you what any measurements are on my current SS gear, and don't really care.

Quote

If an amp doesn't measure well, it's not worth listening to. This demonstates a sense of insecurity and an unwillingness to trust one's ears and emotions to guide one's preferences.

I could argue the same point toward tube proponents. I am not in either camp, but right now, the best I have found, and can afford is solid state. I don't agree with the broad generalization, and I really don't think the majority of audiophiles are fundamentalist zealots who won't switch from one to the other if it sounds better.

If I could find something that sounds better than my current integrated, with as much ballsy power, and that sounded more like music, I'd switch right away if I could afford it. I don't care whether it's tubes or not.

RussKon · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 10:34 pm »

"I could argue the same point toward tube proponents. I am not in either camp, but right now, the best I have found, and can afford is solid state. I don't agree with the broad generalization, and I really don't think the majority of audiophiles are fundamentalist zealots who won't switch from one to the other if it sounds better.

If I could find something that sounds better than my current integrated, with as much ballsy power, and that sounded more like music, I'd switch right away if I could afford it. I don't care whether it's tubes or not."

well said.... i want it to sound good... i don't care how i get there!!!!!!

Jon L · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Aug 2003, 10:44 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

Things are kinduv dull around here, so I thought I'd start a friendly discussion. The following is meant to be a shot at the solid state crowd:

Solid state folks rely more on measurements that tube folks. They conclude that folks who prefer tube gear have untrained ears, like to listen to "colored" music, and are not interested in accuracy. They use the measured performance of their am ...

I have owned/loved/hated enough tube and solid state amps to know one is not inherently "better" or worse. There are great amps in both camps, and today's great SS amps yield nothing to the great tube designs. I currently have both kinds and enjoy them both...