[andyr]

Prompted by a suggestion by member 'JLM' in an Audio Central topic recently...he and I would like to know 'how do you cope with it' and still wanna' listen to music on vinyl?

Mmmm, this thread is far too long to spend time reading it all - so all I'll say is ... come round to my place and listen to new 180gm vinyl that is so quiet, if you didn't know, you'd swear you were listening to CD ... 'xept of course, it sounds much better! 

And this is with Maggies having ribbon tweeters which go to 40KHz ... so it's not as if my speakers don't have enough top end! 

I guess the people in Audio Central haven't had the joy of listening to a top-flight vinyl system? 

Regards,

Andy

[pass the peas]

Some folks are not sensitive to it at all.  I was digging thru the bins at a used record store one day and this cat with chain wallet and punk rock hair was rifling through the racks pulling out this and that, not ever checking the condition or even verifying the contents of the jacket. I was appalled.  Thing is, that cat probably gets as much enjoyment from his dirty, scratched, groove-worn records as I do from my more carefully selected and RCM cleaned records.  He may get more enjoyment, unencumbered as he is from the obsession of vinyl playback.  I suppose if all your records sound like ass, there's no reason to get bunched up about a scratch or whether or not all the MRC has been removed.

[TheChairGuy]

Hi 'andyr' - my records are very quiet due to cleaning ritual and more advanced stylus profiles, as well (180g virgin, or not).

Member 'JLM' expressed this sentiment to me - as he only listens to CD now - and I thought it would make a good and provocative new post.  Several pages on, and counting - it seems it has 

[Daverz]

more advanced stylus profiles

What stylus profiles are you using?

[doug s.]

the best styli, imo, are the type known as "fine-line, "micro-ridge", etc.  different mfr's have different names.  another name is "fritz-geiger".  this type of needle digs deeper into the groove, & has a higher surface area of the needle on the winyl, making for more accurate sound, better tracking, & less wear, as the force of the weight is spread over a larger surface area, compared to conical or elliptical styli...

doug s.

more advanced stylus profiles

What stylus profiles are you using?

[TheChairGuy]

What stylus profiles are you using?

They run the gamut....but I stay away from conical (aka, sphericals) for reasons doug s. has illustrated.  I have elliptical-tipped cartridges, they are fine (I'm not fanatical about not using this or that, except for potentially damaging conicals).  But, for lower noise when listening....nude, hyper-ellipticals keep the hiss down to a minimum better (typically).  Nude, grain-oriented hyper-ellipticals are even better.

The best I know of, tip-wise, for the money is the AT440MLa.  Unless it changed from the prior OCC version of it...but it probably has the same nude, grain-oriented, aluminum micro-line(tm) tip.  That stylus type is usually something found on $300+ cartridges...a helluva' deal on something that costs only $90 new nowadays.  A lot of folks have noted how quiet the AT is...it's a function of both the shape AND the nude (not bonded), grain-orientation.  The OCC version was just annoyingly bright...something the new one has supposedly corrected.

Quietness is only one aspect to admire about it...but, one may like other brands for similar money (with cheaper styli) better for one reason or another.

I have van den Huls, Gygers, Stereohedrons and Line stylis in my ever-expanding collection here   

It really helps pad down surface noise when you use a hyper-elliptical stylus profile...and better still when it's nude and grain-oriented.

[rollo]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have yet to experience this problem. Is it my cartridge [ Micro Benz M2] or the Linn LP12, Ittock 2 arm. I don't know.
     I use a VPI record cleaning machine and treat my LPs with more care than my wife. Lucky me I guess. The only time I think it was present is when I put on an old uncleaned LP.
      So I guess cleanling and taking care of your LP collection is Paramount to no surface noise.

 rollo

[TheChairGuy]

Yup, rollo, a good/wet vacuum cleaning is #1 way to tame surface noise...secondary, but helpful are stylus shape, grain orientation and probably even electrical and mechanical damping of arm and phono pre. 

If your cartridge is damped correctly, you will have less rising treble....where the hiss resides mostly on albums.

1660 views right now on this topic....I still don't understand why member JLM would have thought this a slight at vinylphools.  Seems to be just a great topic to share all of our experiences upon 

[Scott F.]

Hey TCG and JLM,

I think this is a great topic. I haven't seen any threats of flames at all.

Ultimately I think we go back to djbnh's analogy about living in the country. Some people love it, others can't stand the bugs. I think this thread turned into something other than the typical X is better than Y argument.

Who knows, maybe AC has turned PC Now if we could just figure out how to do this when capacitors come up 

Great thread 

[andyr]

Hi 'andyr' - my records are very quiet due to cleaning ritual and more advanced stylus profiles, as well (180g virgin, or not).

Member 'JLM' expressed this sentiment to me - as he only listens to CD now - and I thought it would make a good and provocative new post.  Several pages on, and counting - it seems it has 

Well done!!   

Andy

[TheChairGuy]

Here's Max Townshend's, maker of The Rock turntable, take on clicks and pops....

Even clicks and scratches are less audible on a Rock V. It has long been appreciated that most ticks and small scratches on records are equivalent to a single cycle of 10-15 kHz, in itself barely audible; and yet these same scratches throw most record playing systems into resonances which can last up to 50 times as long as the original tick, and are certainly very audible. In the Rock V, resonances right across the band are so well suppressed that for once we can approach closely the ideal of the inaudible tick. The effects are simply over so fast that the ear does not notice, and mildly 'clicky' records can become enjoyable once again.

So, once all resonances are tamed and suppressed...the click and pop phenomenon is greatly reduced.  One way to very audibly reduce such resonances is thru the use of a fluid or electrical damped tonearm (as The Rock is most known for).

My current JVC has a oil-damped (adjustable in vertical and horizontal plane) tonearm....so I had no base/stock level to compare.  But, my previous JVC deck was a cheapie unit I used as an engineering mule...where I fashioned a trough (made of aluminum foil) filled with 50,000cst silicone.  Noise, whether in the form of reduced rumble or resonances, was remarkably reduced...and the playback sonics was a lot less sensitive to a good rap on the side or top.  It was then and there that I realized how important a fluid, or electrically, damped tonearm is to playback quality of any turntable

The evidence of surface noise, and clicks, pops and scratches - were reduced considerably after application of fluid damping (and after I damped the entire decks with about 12 lbs of Plast-i-Clay inside and out) 

[Marco1408]

What a wonderful analogy, djbnh - best I've ever heard

For me, by far the biggest cause of surface noise (clicks, pops, etc) is the records themselves, followed by poor turntable set-up. Mint vinyl on a properly set-up quality turntable/arm/cartridge, and system, should have next to no surface noise. It's not that difficult to achieve, particularly with well-designed equipment supports. Second-hand vinyl now that's a different ball game, and depends very much on the condition of the record before it got to you. But with judicious cleaning, etc, as others have pointed out, the worst of the surface noise can be eradicated.

Besides, any slight surface noise is worth it because vinyl sounds like real music!

CDs? Pah!!

Marco.

[Psychicanimal]

CDs? Pah!!

Careful...don't fall into *that* trap.

[Marco1408]

Psychic,

I have BOTH a CD and vinyl source, as you'll notice from my system list, and I probably listen to both equally, but ultimately I prefer vinyl. It's just so much more natural and 'organic' sounding

And as for the artwork on sleeves, etc, compared to CD - no contest!

Marco.

[Psychicanimal]

Marco, you owe it to yourself to try a belt drive CD system. 

My digital and analog sound real close to each other, especially now with this modded Trackmaster I.

[Wayner]

Not to hi-jack the thread....but I just inherited a Marantz 2385 receiver (with 185 watts RMS per Channel) and a technics SL-Q2 direct drive turntable. This is my first DD and I must say it is impressive. I don't like the cartridge in it (Shure m95 something...cant read it) but I am wondering if I have to order another AT440MLa for this bad boy as well? Anyway it's nice not to have to f--- with a belt! I'm going to tweak the hell out of this thing because both components were free and see where it takes me. As for the Marantz, I have it in the garage with my Dynaco A25XL's and at the first dot on the volume control, they might be too loud for the neighbors. God, what a powerhouse receiver. Is this the most powerful receiver Marantz ever made?

W

[TheChairGuy]

Aww frick, Wayner...don't worry about hi-jacking the thread.  At 11 pages, I don't think there are any more GIANT secrets to keeping surface noise down than has already been exposed

The Marantz you have is probably one of their most powerful...they just made tanks back then.  Love that Gyro touch tuning, do ya'? (I had one of their littler models circa 1977 - the 2216B)

As for your Technics: http://www.vinylengine.com/library_model.php?make=Technics&selected_model=SL-Q2

No belt is good...auto return is nicer still. It's got okay specs...it's worst failing is probably it's rattling plastic and empty insides.  Nothing about 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay can't improve upon 

[Zero One]

Surface noise sure gets under my skin and I have tried several things to kill it so here is my thoughts on what works.

First of all the records need to be really clean obviously, but and I know this is going to upset a few but the only way I have found that truly gets them (SNDC) surface noise dead clean is using PVA glue, so successful is this for my needs that every LP I buy 2nd hand now plus all my current LPs are being PVAed.  I have seen some chat on forums about it but I think they are going about it the wrong way, basically they are putting really thick coats on and leaving it sometimes days to dry and then just lifting the PVA off.

In my method I paint both sides thinly and let is dry off till clear, which takes about 1 hr or so, then peel it off which can be hard.  Then I use a mix of very dilute truck wash, dishwashing liquid and distilled water to scrub any leftovers out plus clean the loosened rubbish with a stiff but very high quality paint brush, the discs are then rinsed in distilled water and left to air dry.  When dry the discs are treated with Last preservative and ready to play.

Lots of my LP to CD students have tried this method and I got emails and comments about how amazingly effective it is so I am confident in the process. All that is generally left is the tape noise from the actual recording process and some click from scratches etc.

Moving onto carts, I feel chairguy and others are correct about stylus profile but I would like to add that I think the cart itself has quite a part to play also and my recent experience of this really has got me thinking.

A little while back I dabbled in some pretty serious cart modding of some very basic carts that use cheap sperical styli. I have a few so comparisons are easy. you can have a look at what was done here: http://homepage.mac.com/braddles/PhotoAlbum9.html.

This cart really does sound good, and lots of friends who have heard it have been impressed, but one thing that they and I have been a bit dumbfounded by is just how low the surface noise is, it is not a matter of clipped treble the cart has very extended highs and masses of detail, but surface noise is very low.  My unmodded version of the cart and semi modded versions are far far noisier.  I still have not worked out quite why the surface noise is so much better, I think it is probably because the cart is virtually homogenus, meaning the whole thing is solid being filled with resin and the outer shell is kind of contrained layered of lacquer, alloy, and balsa.  I expect resonances are very low, I hope so that was the intention.   I did not expect lower surface noise when building the cart so it was a nice surprise.

The point I am making is that I think that surface noise is not just stylus dependent though it certainly is a big part.

Finally and this is something I really need to look further into I have found that the lower the circuit noise of the phono preamp the lower the apparent surface noise, I am not totally sure why but I have found this to be a real issue, perhaps someone may have a comment on that one. I found that when I went to full battery power for my system that apparent surface noise took a neat dive and low level musical detail took a nice ascent.

On the whole I think this is a fascinating topic and worth lots of investigation.
Cheers
Zero One

[andyr]

First of all the records need to be really clean obviously, but and I know this is going to upset a few but the only way I have found that truly gets them (SNDC) surface noise dead clean is using PVA glue ...

In my method I paint both sides thinly and let is dry off till clear, which takes about 1 hr or so, then peel it off which can be hard.  Then I use a mix of very dilute truck wash, dishwashing liquid and distilled water to scrub any leftovers out plus clean the loosened rubbish with a stiff but very high quality paint brush, the discs are then rinsed in distilled water and left to air dry.  When dry the discs are treated with Last preservative and ready to play.

Cheers
Zero One

Hi ZO,

That is the most bizarre concept I've read about in a long time but I'm willing to give it a go! 

But first, can you explain why the PVA does any good?  Have you ever tried just doing the rest of your routine:
"... very dilute truck wash, dishwashing liquid and distilled water to scrub any leftovers out, plus clean the loosened rubbish with a stiff but very high quality paint brush, the discs are then rinsed in distilled water and left to air dry."? 

And what is "truck wash"? 

Regards,

Andy

[Zero One]

Hi Andy

Yep I love bizzare stuff.

First up the PVA wood glue (I use sellys aquadhere) sticks to the LP in a pretty firm manner but dirt sticks to it better far better than the LP, so when you peel it off the dirt comes off with it. It also has a very strong electrostatic attraction so that helps I guess, when you peel it off it seems to want to stick to just about anything.

Truck wash is a type of degreaser/detergent meant for use in power cleaning machines, in OZ the best known one is CT18, mind you I wouldn't use anything like the strenght used in a cleaning machines.

Yep I have tried all the permutations of cleaning etc and this is the biz for me.  I find that if I take any record I have previously cleaned by any other method and then run this routine it always sounds better and quieter period!

Heres the challenge, find an old record from your collection or buy one from an op shop make sure its a bit rough just in case your worried. Play it and record it then run the process and play it again and record it , let me know how you go. You might even like to try your current cleaning method as an intermediate step. I am pretty confident you will be pleasantly surprised.

Note it is possible the method may remove some plasticiser from the LP but I have no reason to think so from results, just thought I'd mention that, anyhow the LAST treatement takes care of that.