[Steve Eddy]

That amp gave by far the most enjoyable musical presentation (but unfortunately really needed to be at least twice as powerful!  ) but IMO this cannot be explained by any measurements of distortion, frequency response etc.

Don't see why not. I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, it all boils down to changes in voltage and current over time on the electrical side of things and changes in air pressure over time on the acoustical side of things. All of which we can measure to microscopic levels.

se

[kyrill]

Is everything measurable? single phenomena yes
multiple interacting phenomena? Well probably?
multiple interacting dynamic complex phenomena ? hardly


But even then, you can only measure what you up front want to measure
So where to begin and what to measure?

Wouldn't it be easy for the competition to measure the "palpable singer" electrical properties?
and then replicate this?
And why are gear with magic so thinly spread over manufacturers?
magic meaning the electrical setup and recording properties just disappear and living people with no electronic properties at all enter your listening room

nah some measurement topologies still has to be found, like jitter didn't exist in the mind of the Philips cd rom designer. If it does not exist in your mind you cannot measure it

[Steve Eddy]

By the way, lest anyone get the idea that I've something against wood chassis, here's a little transformer coupled passive "preamp" I designed and built for Mike LaFevre of MagneQuest.

Front and rear panels are made of solid walnut from a tree that was cut down on Mike's property in upstate Pennsylvania. The subpanels the RCAs are mounted on are made of tempered hardboard. Top, side and bottom panels are also made of tempered hardboard, covered on the outside with leather and lined on the inside with cork. The dowels connecting the front and rear panels are made of phenolic impregnated paper tubing and covered with leather. The only metal in the chassis are the brass screws which mount the subpanels to the rear panel and the screws that hold the front and rear panels together. All screws are machine screws which screw into threaded holes which are tapped directly into the walnut.



The inspiration for this chassis was a funky little passive unit I'd built some years before using spare parts and scrap wood. Didn't have any 6-32 nuts on hand at the time so I used some 6-32 T-nuts. The "feet" are 1/8" diameter stainless steel dowel pins.





se

[andyr]

By the way, lest anyone get the idea that I've something against wood chassis, here's a little transformer coupled passive "preamp" I designed and built for Mike LaFevre of MagneQuest.

Front and rear panels are made of solid walnut from a tree that was cut down on Mike's property in upstate Pennsylvania. The subpanels the RCAs are mounted on are made of tempered hardboard. Top, side and bottom panels are also made of tempered hardboard, covered on the outside with leather and lined on the inside with cork. The dowels connecting the front and rear panels are made of phenolic impregnated paper tubing and covered with leather. The only metal in the chassis are the brass screws which mount the subpanels to the rear panel and the screws that hold the front and rear panels together. All screws are machine screws which screw into threaded holes which are tapped directly into the walnut.

se

Georgeous!  (and the gear looks good, too!  )

Andy

[Russell Dawkins]

That's a pretty mature looking design for a one-off.
Even the logo looks like it's been through a few iterations.
Nice work.

[Kevin Haskins]

Very cool looking part Steve.   

I don't necessarily subscribe to the concept that measurements in terms of typical audio measurements are capable of completely describing or characterizing the sound of what we hear.   The methods are valid, just not complete.     I suppose it would be possible, if we had enough research into the topic for long enough to come up with some complex methods of analyzing the data in a complete enough way that you could predict with certainty how people would perceive it.   I think the void in our knowledge is mostly on the ear/brain side though, not in the equipment.

That doesn't mean that everything should fall within the realm of non-analytical methods to classifying weather something is "better" or "worse".    What I subscribe to is having a metric that removes the bias of the listener.   I think it is reasonable, to expect the things I call "better" to be "better" for others and it should be obvious enough that a blind test should show it in a statistical manner.     It shouldn't be a situation where its just an opinion.

So... even if we didn't have a complete physical explanation for "why" something sounds better.   It would still be possible to measure a preference based upon panels of people who listen in a scientifically valid manner.    I don't think that is an unreasonable position to hold.

In terms of your single ended triode, the reason you like it is explainable in terms of standard measurements.   It has lots of even order distortion in relation to high order products.   I think there is a fair amount of evidence to support that people can enjoy having high levels of even order distortion added.   Hell... .I have some 300Bs and I love them for female vocals, stringed instruments and much of what I listen to on a regular basis.    If you listen to a full range of music though you will find that they have some warts also.    In terms of picking what warts you want to live with, that is a personal choice.    I don't hold that against anyone as I like a little second order flavor in my playback system also.   

Clear as mud?

[Steve Eddy]

Georgeous!  (and the gear looks good, too!  )

Nobody likes a smartass, Andrew.

T'anks!

se

[Steve Eddy]

That's a pretty mature looking design for a one-off.

Well, wasn't intended as a one-off. Mike was planning to go into production with it but his life got a bit complicated so it's been back-burnered for the time being. Hopefully it'll get put into production sometime next year.

Even the logo looks like it's been through a few iterations.

Actually the logo's over 50 years old. It's the Peerless logo of Altec/Peerless transformer fame. Mike bought the trademark and all the other Peerless intellectual property from Altec back in the 90s.

Nice work.

T'anks!

se

[andyr]

In terms of your single ended triode, the reason you like it is explainable in terms of standard measurements.   It has lots of even order distortion in relation to high order products.   I think there is a fair amount of evidence to support that people can enjoy having high levels of even order distortion added.   Hell... .I have some 300Bs and I love them for female vocals, stringed instruments and much of what I listen to on a regular basis.    If you listen to a full range of music though you will find that they have some warts also.    In terms of picking what warts you want to live with, that is a personal choice.    I don't hold that against anyone as I like a little second order flavor in my playback system also.   

Clear as mud?

Gin-clear, Kevin!  

I'm aware of the limitations of SETs - chiefly IMO that they force you to use particular styles of speakers (highly efficient!   ).  Also possibly they lack the kick-ass bass of some ss amps.

However, while "lots of second-harmonic distortion" can certainly be "blamed" for making the female vocals sound gorgeous, I don't think they explain why she was projected out into the room several feet.  There must be something else at work here.

To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke "Anything sufficiently technologically unexplainable can be thought of as magic."!!    And most people agree there is "magic" in SETs!

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Steve,

This is beautiful work, you are a real artisan!

Thanks for sharing....

Kevin,

I think you say it all when you reflect on the melifluous sound of high levels of even order distortion.  In SETs, and on simple music, it sounds wonderful.  But it falls apart on orchestral stuff for both dynamic and distortive reasons.

I have noticed my amps sound better with the top off.  I'm sure there are reasons for this, and I'd love to use a tempered hardwood top panel.  

I reckon there's still much to learn in high end.  I really do.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Steve Eddy]

Very cool looking part Steve.

Thanks, Kevin!

se

[Steve Eddy]

Steve,

This is beautiful work, you are a real artisan!

Thanks for sharing....

You're welcome. And thank you.

You know, I've been thinking. We can take this wooden chassis movement to a whole other level beside sonics and aesthetics. It can also be aimed toward environmentalists. We can promote the wooden chassis movement as high end audio's carbon sequestration program.

se

[Kevin Haskins]

Steve,

This is beautiful work, you are a real artisan!

Thanks for sharing....

You're welcome. And thank you.

You know, I've been thinking. We can take this wooden chassis movement to a whole other level beside sonics and aesthetics. It can also be aimed toward environmentalists. We can promote the wooden chassis movement as high end audio's carbon sequestration program.

se

I agree.... I'll make the rest of my loudspeakers out of wood products so that they have a neutral carbon footprint.    Of course then someone will come along and say they sound better made out of aluminum.   

[andyr]

You know, I've been thinking. We can take this wooden chassis movement to a whole other level beside sonics and aesthetics. It can also be aimed toward environmentalists. We can promote the wooden chassis movement as high end audio's carbon sequestration program.

se

But I thought greenies were into planting trees ... not cutting them down to make speaker cabinets or amp cases from? 

Regards,

Andy

[Steve Eddy]

I agree.... I'll make the rest of my loudspeakers out of wood products so that they have a neutral carbon footprint.    Of course then someone will come along and say they sound better made out of aluminum.   

Yeah, I know. Ya just can't win, can ya?

se

[Steve Eddy]

But I thought greenies were into planting trees ... not cutting them down to make speaker cabinets or amp cases from? 

That's changing in light of global warming. Now wood (from renewable, sustainable sources of course) is being looked at more favorably by environmentalists as a building material. You see, you plant the trees, they suck carbon out of the atmosphere, then you cut 'em down and build stuff with 'em, which, unless the stuff you build with them burns up (or down as the case may be), sequesters the carbon from those trees. Then you plant more trees to replace the ones you cut down and they suck up still more carbon and so on.

se

[andyr]

That's changing in light of global warming. Now wood (from renewable, sustainable sources of course) is being looked at more favorably by environmentalists as a building material. You see, you plant the trees, they suck carbon out of the atmosphere, then you cut 'em down and build stuff with 'em, which, unless the stuff you build with them burns up (or down as the case may be), sequesters the carbon from those trees. Then you plant more trees to replace the ones you cut down and they suck up still more carbon and so on.

se

Sounds great ... until you do the maths!   

If a few hundred million population of the "industrialised" countries have been able to do so much damage then far, far more damage is going to be done over the next 30 years as 1.2 billion Chinese and 1 billion Indians get industrialised.  And these nations with "developing" status say they are not going to limit their emissions to the levels which "advanced" nations are making noises about doing ... until they are at the same stage of inductrialisation! 

So if reducing carbon dioxide is the key to survival ... we're stuffed! 

Incidentally, some very interesting facts were reported recently:
1. yes, the artic ice sheet is smaller than it's been in recorded history - so the fabled "Northern Passage" is open - but the Antarctic ice sheets are currently the biggest ever recorded. 
2. the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic ... has gone!  (Or, at least, is the smallest ever recorded.) 

Regards,

Andy

[Russell Dawkins]

To remain OT for just a moment more;
long ago and far away, I was hoisting a few in London town with some technoid boffins and the subject came up of planetary oxygen, as it tends to after a few, even as early as 1970.

I had recently read that the typical American auto consumed the oxygen of a large number of people while just cruising down the interstate carrying one, as they often do.

Further, if every family in India and China drove this type of car the atmosphere would be depleted of oxygen - this was not a sustainable scenario.

Not to worry, said one - we already have oxygen generating plants on the drawing boards!

I wasn't reassured.

[bhobba]

In terms of your single ended triode, the reason you like it is explainable in terms of standard measurements.   It has lots of even order distortion in relation to high order products.   I think there is a fair amount of evidence to support that people can enjoy having high levels of even order distortion added.   Hell... .I have some 300Bs and I love them for female vocals, stringed instruments and much of what I listen to on a regular basis.    If you listen to a full range of music though you will find that they have some warts also.    In terms of picking what warts you want to live with, that is a personal choice.    I don't hold that against anyone as I like a little second order flavor in my playback system also.   

I remember reading of some experiments with digitally simulating the 'distortions' of valves with DSP.  Evidently golden eared audiophiles could not tell the difference between the DSP version going through a transistor amp and a well respected valve amp.  DSP seems to have taken off for guitar amps.  I suspect, due to the subtleties involved, for Hi Fi, exact reproduction will prove elusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_sound#Intentional_creation_of_distortion
'However, other audible differences in sound have proven difficult to define or measure, and it is difficult to explain these sound differences in words as the vocabulary available to describe sound is rather limited -even though the underlying sonic effects are real. Audiophiles often use words like 'warm', 'liquid', 'smooth' and 'midrange magic' to describe tube amplifiers' sound.'

Thanks
Bill

[andyr]

I remember reading of some experiments with digitally simulating the 'distortions' of valves with DSP.  Evidently golden eared audiophiles could not tell the difference between the DSP version going through a transistor amp and a well respected valve amp.  DSP seems to have taken off for guitar amps.  I suspect, due to the subtleties involved, for Hi Fi, exact reproduction will prove elusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_sound#Intentional_creation_of_distortion
'However, other audible differences in sound have proven difficult to define or measure, and it is difficult to explain these sound differences in words as the vocabulary available to describe sound is rather limited -even though the underlying sonic effects are real. Audiophiles often use words like 'warm', 'liquid', 'smooth' and 'midrange magic' to describe tube amplifiers' sound.'

Thanks
Bill

That's very interesting, Bill, as I have been having an "argument" with someone about how on earth one could measure the "Factor X" in a SET amp (actually, Hugh's "Glass Harmony") which causes it to present a singer as being 5' in front of the image produced (in the same speakers) by a Lifeforce 100 amp.

I would've thought this has nothing to do with a different pattern of harmonic distortions (ie. between 'glass' and 'sand') ... but what could it be?     It makes sense that maybe one could use DSP to push the image of a Lifeforce 100 forward in space but what amplifier parameters would one be adjusting with the signal processor?

Regards,

Andy