FOR SALE: ZU DEFINITION PRO speakers >< SOLD At LAST

ohenry · « **Reply #140 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:43 am »

Raffles for personal profit are illegal in most US states and in some European countries AFAIK. I'm not too sure how this may affect Internet dealings. I think if this type of activity was kosher, then it would be a common event.

eric the red · « **Reply #141 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:44 am »

Somehow I don't see JohnR being too hip to this.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #142 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:47 am »

Quote from: macrojack on 24 Jul 2007, 02:36 am

O.K. How about this.

Lonewolf runs the thing. Everybody trusts him. Tickets are $73 each - no quantity discounts. DW avg. seems workable with tickets numbered from 00 to 99. For his trouble, Chris gets $500. Raffle rules post selection will be like auction rules with a time limit to arrange and pay for shipping. If somebody gets these speakers for $73 or even 5 times that, I'm sure they will be eager to collect.
Are there any other considerations? Like - Is this legal?

Should we pick runners-up just in case..........?

I guess Chris could even be a contestant as long as the numbers are assigned and published before Sept.1, 2007.

We also need to clear this with the AC braintrust. We may be overlooking some kind of jeopardy.

I think I'm willing but let's hear from the members. How much interest is there in such an idea?

And most importantly, will Wolfy consent to be the emcee/moderator?

No....no....no.

...I can't run it....but I want to buy a few tickets....you need an outside party.....you can pay them the $500.00...

mcullinan · « **Reply #143 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:49 am »

What if you donated the extra cash to a charity of your choice. That would be a wonderful and humane thing to do. And the AC Gods might favor such an act.
Mike

Gaara · « **Reply #144 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:56 am »

Just a couple comments on the ad...well that is if you want to sell your item.

Looking at the front page I see no mention of what payment type is accepted, nor can I seem to find it a few pages in. Looking deeper you say in your audiogon add that you only accept money orders, personally I rarely purchase with money orders and much prefer to use a credit card.

Second there is no mention of shipping costs in the add, or mention that you will ship. It is assumed in most ads that the seller will ship but this may not be the case with such large expensive items.

There also are no pictures in this add to attest to their condition. Again I would have to look at the Agon add which is a few pages in.

I also don't see the price drop anywhere even though the title says there was one. Personally I would change the price in the first post so that anyone opening the thread could automatically see it instead if sifting through 15 pages to try and find it.

Some buyers may be put off by the fact that this thread is so long, and it is difficult to find basic info.

Just some food for thought.

macrojack · « **Reply #145 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:56 am »

I suspect ohenry is right about the raffle for profit thing but I'm not making a profit and we are limiting participation to members of a private club.

The charity angle is good too. How about the Michael Vick Defense Fund?

And how does JohnR feel about such a venture? If he lets me do it, then he has to let everyone do it. Of course, not many will travel the path I have to arrive at this point.

However this works out, I have the feeling that my chances of selling to any individual on this forum have completely evaporated.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #146 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:01 am »

Maybe the charity would be....Audio Circle....that extra cash would go towards the cost to run the site...which we all enjoy...

macrojack · « **Reply #147 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:03 am »

Gaara - Thanks for your suggestions. My phone number and email are clearly provided on the front page along with an invitation to contact me with questions.
I will ship via FedEx ground or any other carrier you want to pay for. Insurance is non-negotiable. I will take no risk. Nor will I lie about the value for customs.
The current asking price is $6850.

Many people have commented on the entertainment value to be found in this thread. Read through it and see if you agree. In all likelihood every question imaginable has been asked and answered somewhere in there.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #148 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:14 am »

http://stepbystepfundraising.com/how-to-organize-a-raffle-fundraiser/

http://stepbystepfundraising.com/raffle-laws-us-by-state/

nicksgem10s · « **Reply #149 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:16 am »

If your lottery idea doesn't work out I have some suggestions that have worked for me in the past. These are not revolutionary but they can be effective.

I think a featured ad on Audiogon that features some more detailed photos (front, back, side) at your reduced rate would get you an interested buyer. I believe people want to see good photos of the actual item for sale.

I have had luck with featured ads and found the additional exposure worth the extra money. (No I do not have a stake in Audiogon

)

This is a high ticket item that is going to be very desirable to people in the know. I have never heard them but imagine they are a very special speaker.

macrojack · « **Reply #150 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 12:53 pm »

It would appear that, in order for these speakers to be raffled legitimately, they would need to be acquired by a non-profit, and subsequently made available to ticket buyers as a fundraiser for that non-profit.

What we have proposed appears to be generally conforming but the variable is the state laws in the home state of the non-profit. There may be a need for it to acquire a license and/or pay a fee.

The only sure winners in this are me and Audio Circle. The rest of you are looking at one (or more) chances in 100 of getting anything for your money except possibly a tax deduction for donating to a not for profit entity if AC has that status.

Anyone have further thoughts about the efficacy of this venture?

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #151 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 01:14 pm »

I'd buy a couple of tickets, lets go!

macrojack · « **Reply #152 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 01:42 pm »

Legally, I would be selling my speakers to AC and would not ship until I received full payment just like we all do with every sale.
AC would need to determine the winner, pay me and connect me with that party so that shipping can be arranged and paid for by our lucky winner.

Who receives the money and sells the numbers? It seems that responsibility would fall to JohnR or someone he appoints. Is there a problem to be confronted concerning state lines? What state is the originator of this venture?

I'm all for this, of course, but I need a legitimate non profit based in a state that allows this kind of raffle. I don't want Alberto Gonzales to get my speakers as evidence and I certainly don't want to be the person that pushes Michael Vick off the front page.

Audio Circle is the best option, I think, because of the private club nature of our idea and because, as Chris says, we all benefit from putting the money there. That way, the 99 gamblers who lose still derive some benefit by feeding the object of their devout affections. Plus it enables you to view your loss as a donation.

Who monitors and declares the winner? If not enough tickets are sold by a certain date, funds would need to be returned and I would be out of luck having taken my speakers off the market for the raffle period.
Considering the advice to just keep them, and the fact that they aren't moving anyway, this doesn't present me with an objectionable sacrifice.

Where's the official word saying yeah or nay? Let the games begin.

sts9fan · « **Reply #153 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:03 pm »

So when I want to sell my speakers is AC going to buy them to sell??

miklorsmith · « **Reply #154 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:08 pm »

This has all the makings of a clusterfart. It's great forum fodder but would break down in implementation. I'd love to be proved wrong though, it's sure to be entertaining.

macrojack · « **Reply #155 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:30 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 24 Jul 2007, 02:08 pm

This has all the makings of a clusterfart. It's great forum fodder but would break down in implementation. I'd love to be proved wrong though, it's sure to be entertaining.

I think you are right, Mike. The greatest potential for failure lies in not selling enough tickets and having to reurn all the funds. Then there is the matter of no comment as yet from AC which makes it a non-starter. Then there is the question raised by sts9fan. Why my speakers and not his?

I think that an annual fundraiser could pass muster with authorities and I think the product being offered would need to be rare or expensive or both to generate ticket sales. Fair market value is probably not a concern, however, since the product is going to be obtained for a fraction of its worth. An example of this would be an unopened UHQR Beatles set selling 100 tickets at $100 apiece. Someone might win this at 10% of its value and it might generate 9 times its value for the auctioning entity. Please don't challenge my estimated values. They are purely hypothetical and made up just to illustrate the point.

This needs to be a win/win all the way around to be viable. There is something in it for everybody,even if only the chance to win and the excitement that generates. Ac gets money which is a collective win. And I get almost what I have to have for my speakers. That too, obviously is a win.

sts9fan - I think that Druids are too accessible in terms of availibility and price to be used as a raffle item but that isn't my call. I imagine people are most likely to gamble on winning something they can't or won't buy conventionally.

Kishore · « **Reply #156 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:33 pm »

Ironically this reminds me of a thread when JohnR was trying to sell speakers (it was opposite case though)

...I think this thread tops that

Cheers,
Kishore

fly_fish_nz · « **Reply #157 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 02:46 pm »

"The greatest potential for failure lies in not selling enough tickets and having to return all the funds."

I've never seen a raffle for charity return funds because of low participation. I have no expertise in this whatsoever, but I would be very surprised if the venture is legal since you are clearly not a not for profit entity. If it were, I would be holding raffles regularly, donating some percentage to charity.

macrojack · « **Reply #158 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:10 pm »

Quote from: fly_fish_nz on 24 Jul 2007, 02:46 pm

"The greatest potential for failure lies in not selling enough tickets and having to return all the funds."

I've never seen a raffle for charity return funds because of low participation. I have no expertise in this whatsoever, but I would be very surprised if the venture is legal since you are clearly not a not for profit entity. If it were, I would be holding raffles regularly, donating some percentage to charity.

Here's the time line and arrangement.

Assuming AC does not have the funds to buy these speakers, I propose that they be removed from the market and considered sold until the raffle succeeds or fails in generating sufficient funds. If 100 tickets are sold, then AC will buy the speakers and keep the difference ($500). Because of the decision to use the Dow Jones closing number as our winner (since it is easily verifiable and totally random) only 100 tickets can be sold without duplication.

As I have said repeatedly, this depends on AC's willingness to participate and qualification as a legal entity for such a venture.

Before anyone else raises questions about these proceedings, he should take the time to read this entire thread to see how the idea evolved and whether or not his question has already been discussed.

If this is to move forward it needs to stop going back.

mcullinan · « **Reply #159 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 03:11 pm »

What about my mom? How does she get some action off this?
M