[JLM]

I have a dedicated 13 ft x 22 ft x 8 ft insulated listening room with 6 GIK 244 panels in the front corners and first reflection sidewall points.  I listen nearfield ala Cardias room dimensions/setup and know that its best to fix the room before adding any EQ.  I'm considering adding QRD diffusors, see pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm

My speakers are single driver transmission lines (rated in room roughly 30 - 20,000 Hz) but use a simple baffle  step/zobel circuit to flatten out the response.  My 40 watt monoblocks provide plenty of power for my taste (and not having to compete with outside noise).  I'd like to eliminate the (DIY/cheap) circuits and wire directly from amp to the drivers.


My questions:

Can I replace the baffle step/zobel circuits and achieve room correction both with the DEQ 2496?

How much would the diffusors help if I already have DEQ?  (It'll cost hundreds to build the 54 s.f. of diffusors that I have in mind.)

I want to add a DAC in the next 12 months, so in the interim is there a decent/inexpensive XLR/RCA cable?

I thought I found a link to simple (really simple for me) setup instructions for the DEQ, but now can't locate it.  Can someone link me?

TIA

[richidoo]

Sounds awesome! What driver gets you 30-20kHz? What design cabinet? Thanks

Thanks for the link to DIY diffusors, I have been looking for something like that all week!

Try moving your 244s from the front corners to the rear corners, or lay them on their side along floor on side walls next to speakers. Mine work a little better there without drying up soundstaging placed behind the speakers. YMMV. Since you're using Cardas setup, the speakers are not standing in front of the corner 244s anyway so you're not getting much reduction in SBIR from the panels, and bass absorbtion can be placed in any corner in the room with same effect. I tried the Cardas placement last week in a small room, but it was only 11+ feet wide so I had to sit too close to speakers for it to work.    But was definitely better than my best guess! I would love to hear it in a bigger room.

You can get great quality, high value wires from Blue Jeans Cables. For cheaper stuff, check Sweetwater.com, or some musicians website, like musician's friend, they have pretty good service and prices.

As for DEQ, I have only read about it. It seems very useful, but don't know about sound quality. My speakers are the opposite of yours, 5 way - so I didn't follow up with DEQ. Check out Behringer products also. Much cheaper, good for simple EQ and speaker filters, but DACs not great for hifi, need digital input and DAC following for best results. You can use etfsoftware.com's R+D software to fine tune filters for the behringer in your room if you are particular.
Rich

[JLM]

Rich,

My speakers were designed/built by Bob Brines (mass loaded transmission line with Fostex F200A drivers that I commissioned, what a hoot!).

I've messed around trying the six panels in various locations and configurations.  Perhaps because of the Cardias/nearfield setup in what should be a good room to start with or the beaming of high frequencies from the 8 inch whizzerless drivers the absorption panels haven't made a huge difference.  Using one at each first reflection side wall location does widen the soundstage somewhat, but stacking the other four angled into the front corners (two per side) versus angled along the floor front/side or just side walls didn't make a noticable difference.

Thanks for the cable leads.  I've been using Element Cables (a similar high bang/buck cable company to Blue Jean Cable), but I didn't see a XLR/RCA option from them.

Eventually I want to get a good DAC, like a Channel Islands VDA-2, and a Behringer DEQ2496 to do EQ, baffle step, and zobel functions.  But don't want to spend that much all at once, so I was also wondering which would provide the bigger first step upgrade, the VDA-2 (without power supply for now) or the DEQ2496 (using its DA     il I get a separate DAC).

I've been researching Behringer DEQ 2496 and have heard similar reports regarding quality of EQ versus DAC.  Eventually would like to have a good DAC and DEQ, but trying to decide if

[Hipper]

Quite frankly, I haven't much of a clue what your talking about although I can pick up snippets! 

Anyway, here is what I know about the Behringer: here's a couple of Behringer help sites:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=16568

http://www.prijsindex.net/tmp/room%20acoustics%20and%20eq.html

In my small room (13x8x8feet) I have Auralex foam in the horizontal and vertical corners of one long side and also occupying half of that, the rest of this  side being  book shelves. The speakers are pushed up against the foam and about one foot out from each corner (with toe in that makes the drivers about ten feet apart and six feet from my ears). My chair is pushed right up against the other long wall and all the gear is to my right and out of reflection range. The speakers are VMPS RM30's.

When I introduced the foam and the Behringer it made such a radical improvement to the sound, more than things like replacing cables (any cables), power conditioning and so on. The Behringer also allowed me to place speakers where normally they shouldn't go because you can get rid of most problem frequencies.

The Behringer sits between my CD transport and DAC so it operates only in digital. However I do occassionally use it for vinyl; currently I use its ADC but my DAC but earlier I tried using the Behringer's DAC and it seemed OK, but not as good as mine. The consensus seems to be though that the Behringer DAC is not up to the best standards.

As for cables, my DAC and Transport can both use XLR cables so I had no problems there, but when I wanted to use the turntable, and phono stage, I had to get some RCA to XLR cables made up. Four cables cost me £50 here in the U.K..

As for a decision as to whether to buy a DAC or the Behringer, the latter is only $300, plus maybe $100 for cables, microphone and microphone stand. It's a bargain! Providing you have the time and patience to get to grips with it you shouldn't regret it. Quite frankly I'm of the view that, unless you have the absolute perfectly setup room, a Behringer DEQ2496 will add substantially to your listening pleasure.

(I've no idea what baffle steps and zobel functions are and whether the Behringer can deal with them - the actual phrases aren't used anywhere in its instructions)

[JLM]

Sorry Hip,

Baffle Step Compensation accounts for soundwave versus baffle width size.  When physical size of a soundwave approaches the width of the speaker (as frequency decreases) it will begin to wrap around the baffle.  So instead of radiating just in the hemi-sphere (4 Pi) space in front of the speaker it will radiate in the full sphere (8 Pi) space all around the speaker.  This naturally results in a 50% (3 dB) loss of perceived efficiency.  Baffle step loss is of concern primarily in single driver or open baffle speaker designs.

Zobel circuits compensate for changes in impedance that drivers exhibit at different frequencies.

The question probalby also needs to be framed in terms of relative strength of the Behringer DAC versus my player's DAC circuit plus the benefit of the Behringer's EQ against the Channel Island DAC with no EQ.

Thanks for the links.


Nice speakers.

[Hipper]

Ignorance is bliss, I was told. I certainly have a lot of bliss!

I once trialed a Cain and Cain single driver speaker but found the highs overwhelming, even when I turned them to face away from the listening position. Perhaps this was a baffle step problem.

Presumably baffle step compensaton and zobel step circuits are fixed regardless of volume? If that is the case then the Behringer will deal with them. You can change the frequency response 'on the fly' but I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis; I prefer to listen.

I would highly recommend you get a Behringer and either use its DAC for the time being, or better, find cheap XLR/RCA cables and use your current DAC. Allow yourself a few months to fully get to grips with it. You can place your speakers in any location as far as room nodes are concerned but will have to deal with reflections, as you are. Most importantly, you must have the patience to learn to use it.

I value the Behringer very highly in my system. It is not a tweak but a quantam leap forward. In fact, if I had to sacrifice anything, I would rather reduce the quality of my other gear then lose the Behringer. Here is my system:

 http://www.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=783

Have you considered TacT products? They're a lot more expensive then the Behringer but highly thought of.

http://www.tactlabs.com/

[JLM]

Hip,

Yes baffle step and zobel related effects are fixed for a given design (at any volume).  Conventional speakers with woofers, tweeters, etc. typical have this as part of the crossover.  I briefly heard the Abby once and liked the sound.  Terry's workmanship was beyond reproach, but too expensive for me as a subwoofer would be needed to cover the bottom octave of music. 

Its not a matter of if, but when I pick up DEQ.  My room (accepting 8 foot tall ceilings) should be close to an ideal listening environment to start with.  Sitting nearfield with drivers that beam over 4,000 Hz, the room has been largely taken out of the equation already.  So I'm not expecting miracles. 

thanks again

[richidoo]

JLM
I originally thought you were talking about getting this. It is a lot more expensive than the Behringer, but very powerful. Names are kinda similar, so I confused them.

I have seen a few posts from people using DEC2496 with internal DACs with success. It is designed to be a pro audio tool, so it is not just consumer HT junk. If you know you're gonna get it sometime, i think that would be the best first step. You already have a nice digital player, so adding Dusty's DAC to it might not be as extreme an upgrade as acoustic correction.

I believe the Behringer EQ products are kinda tweeky, so you might be spending time with it to achieve the result you're after, but they are powerful. R+D software mentioned previously is suppose to help you streamline the filter creation by a large margin, as well as providing excellent acoustic analysis of your room, better than the built in analysis of the Behringer products. You may want to check it out. It can compute and spit out a filter for the behringer. I am a new user of it, just for passive treatment of my room, but with it's filter creationability, I may try the EQ box with it sometime too.
Rich

[richidoo]

Found this while browsing around tonight - thought of you JLM!
Rich

[JLM]

Thanks for the link Rich.   

Very juicy mods, and in line with (as I can understand) the design of the Channel Island Audio VDA-2 which is the DAC I have in mind.  The analog output impedance would indicate benefit from the Burson Buffer (at reported).  So that jacks the price up a bit more.   

Wonder if anyone on this side of the pond does similar mods?

[Bob in St. Louis]

How about something like this cable John:
http://www.buy.com/prod/pyle-pprc-x05-professional-dual-xlr-to-dual-rca-cable/q/loc/111/90128488.html

Or, you can make your own:
http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/connection/xlr-rca-1.html

Bob

[JLM]

Thanks Bob, that's plenty cheap enough for me as an interim measure.

[Bob in St. Louis]

You're welcome John (Jeff). 

EDIT; For me being a dork.  Thinking I knew your name. Sorry about that.