Acceptable longevity for gear?

sts9fan · « **on:** 22 May 2007, 06:04 pm »

What kind of longevity do you expect/hope to get out of your gear? I understand there are ALWAYS bum units etc. but I am talking about the majority not the exceptions. I would assume it would be different for different types of gear. Just something I have been prompted to think about lately.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 May 2007, 06:11 pm »

Most modern electronics should last decades. I'm not talking cheap $50 DVD players, rather preamp, amplifiers etc. When I'm involved in designing something I shoot for making the average lifespan longer than my remaining life.

Speakers should last also.... the newer materials used in suspension and surround have a much longer life than the foam surrounds of past.

I'd say what is more relevant, is that most consumers don't seem to be happy with anything more than about 6 months.

aerius · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 May 2007, 06:47 pm »

My philosophy regarding important purchases is "do it once, do it right", and as such I expect my audio gear to last me for the rest of my life. I don't have a single piece of gear that's newer than 10 years, and the oldest has been working since before I was born. Thus I'd say, so far, so good.

JimJ · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 May 2007, 07:16 pm »

I want something that's going to last for as long as I own it, whether that's a year or twenty...

Part of the reason I like either DIY stuff or non-mainstream components, I just don't see a black plastic box from Best Buy lasting through a decade of use

Bill Baker · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 May 2007, 07:46 pm »

I would also say that it depends on the products. Speakers, as Kevin mentioned, should last a very long time for the most part.
Some of the later mass produced digital gear can easily go south within year or two. I think this was Japan's thinking years ago as our land dumps seem to be filled with it. They figured they could design and sell "throw away" gear as technology changes every 6 months anyway. How many bought an HT receiver only to have it outdated 6 months (or even 3 months) later. Same with computers. With so many always wanting the latest and greatest, Japanese receivers were a hot seller and they made a ton of money. They went for quantity rather than quality. If they charged less, they figured people would not have as much of a problem throwing it away when it broke down and simply buy a new one that is even better.

High end audio products are a different story. Most manufacturers realize that their products could be part of a long term system and pay much more attention to QC. The SB is more of a "mainstream" product rather than a designated high end unit. While I agree I would want a $300 unit to last more than 18 months, I don't think a 1 year warranty is out of the question. It is on par with most mass market electronic products these days. I have gotten many years out of cheaper products and even less time out of much more expensive units. You simply never know.

Most CD players don't go over a year and they have moving parts inside?

sts9fan · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 May 2007, 07:56 pm »

I don't think a 1yr warranty is bad either. It covers major defects which is good. That does not mean you expect the product to last that long. I take it as an assurance against defective units.

nathanm · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 May 2007, 08:45 pm »

This is a major philosophical conundrum of mine and why I'm glad I don't sell equipment for a living. On one hand there's the desire to build things right so they last a very long time as long as the user doesn't abuse it. But then I think, where's the money in that? How can you run a business if you sell high quality stuff that people buy once and then you never see them again? That obviously leads to the more common practice of selling people cheap crap but not so cheap that they tell you to take a hike, instead they keep coming back for more crap. Not that this really applies in high end audio, because gear swapping is just part of the "fun" and folks might not keep the stuff for years and years. And it's probably overbuilt to start with. How much worn-out, battle-scarred, old gear do you see for sale out there? Most of it looks brand new to me.

I'm all for Full-Ass, anti-throwaway stuff, but I do wonder how one can survive with that model. I really hope I am completely off my rocker on this one. Perhaps the miniaturization of electronics helps contribute to equipment that cannot be repaired? Do people get anything "fixed" anymore??? (no, not your cat) I sent my car CD player in because it broke and the fucking repair bill was $100 more than the retail price of a new one! Argh! So now I just use it in its broken condition.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 May 2007, 11:50 pm »

Kevin/Bill,

Glad to hear of your life expectancy of speakers and electronics. That's where I've put the bulk of my audio investment even though the design and parts count are minimal (single driver speakers, simple chip monoblock amps, and passive pre-amp).

Digital source components are necessarily at the opposite end of the complexity scale, yet they are typically the most cheaply built component in a given system. From an obsolescence perspective it doesn't make sense to invest heavily in digital sources. Yet I'm still amazed at the poor build quality and cheap materials used in nearly all CD/DVD players considering the tolerances that they must operate within.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2007, 12:30 am »

Quote from: nathanm on 22 May 2007, 08:45 pm

This is a major philosophical conundrum of mine and why I'm glad I don't sell equipment for a living. On one hand there's the desire to build things right so they last a very long time as long as the user doesn't abuse it. But then I think, where's the money in that? How can you run a business if you sell high quality stuff that people buy once and then you never see them again? That obviously leads to the more common practice of selling people cheap crap but not so cheap that they tell you to take a hike, instead they keep coming back for more crap. Not that this really applies in high end audio, because gear swapping is just part of the "fun" and folks might not keep the stuff for years and years. And it's probably overbuilt to start with. How much worn-out, battle-scarred, old gear do you see for sale out there? Most of it looks brand new to me.

I'm all for Full-Ass, anti-throwaway stuff, but I do wonder how one can survive with that model. I really hope I am completely off my rocker on this one. Perhaps the miniaturization of electronics helps contribute to equipment that cannot be repaired? Do people get anything "fixed" anymore??? (no, not your cat) I sent my car CD player in because it broke and the fucking repair bill was $100 more than the retail price of a new one! Argh! So now I just use it in its broken condition.

Nah... it isn't a problem because consumers want something new WAY before it dies anyway. There is the usable life which is related to the physics and material science and then there is the marketing life. I'd like to take a poll of the people here and see how many are using the same amplifier for more than 5 years. I bet it would be a small percentage.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 May 2007, 12:33 am »

Quote

I'd like to take a poll of the people here and see how many are using the same amplifier for more than 5 years. I bet it would be a small percentage.

For most of us??? 1-2 years average is my guess. It would be an interesting poll.

denjo · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 May 2007, 01:28 am »

I think the warranty period suggests the longevity of a product. The length of the warranty is the manufacturer's assurance that the product should be trouble-free for at least the stated period of time. While a balance must be made between commercial interests and consumerism, and given that most audio equipment now have greater longevity, there is no reason why amplifiers (for example) should not come with a longer warranty than a paltry 1 year. I think this longer warranty period may also have some implicit effect of indirectly encouraging the owner to hang on to his gear for a longer period of time, rather than to sell off once the warranty has expired!

WEEZ · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 May 2007, 01:31 am »

Kevin, I like your reference to "useable life" and "marketing life".

WEEZ

denjo · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 May 2007, 01:37 am »

Weez
I like Kevin's expression too! There is a third life, and for want of a better expression, I simply call it "disinclination to upgrade" life!

WEEZ · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 May 2007, 01:40 am »

Levi · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 May 2007, 01:55 am »

I have a pair of McIntosh MC-60 that still works. They were born in 1959.

My Bryston 9BSST and my Bryston 1.7 pre-pro still have 15yrs worth of warranty left.

I guess it all depends on how well built the gear, how hard it is being used plus a little bit of luck goes a long way.

jules · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 May 2007, 03:04 am »

There are some parts that just don't last. I'd name attenuators and various other switches as being in this class. For equipment to last beyond the life of it's weakest link, parts like this need to be replaceable. Often they aren't. I threw out a B&O amp a few years back when various unique slider controls lost their grip.

There's no reason why the life of a really good piece of gear shouldn't be extended by replacement of caps etc. if it's worth it and provided it doesn't have any un-replaceable bits.

jules

Bill Baker · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 May 2007, 03:34 am »

I think of all the products in audio, properly designed tube amps should actually last the longest with the tubes themselves being the exception. Sure you run the potential of lytics drying out over a long period of time, especiall if the product is not in use, but any electrical component runs this chance.

Even as a smaller business, I still offer a 5 year warranty on my larger tube amps, 18 months on my less expensive units and 1 year on modifications. I honestly think that if a tube amp makes it past the first 3 months, you can expect a long, happy life.

rollo · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2007, 12:19 am »

A lifetime limited warranty is the ticket. Transferable as well. Classe leads the field in Warranty. If you make it right there should be no problems. When my Classe DR 25 needed repair when I broke it , Classe repaired for free including shipping back. To my suprise they upgraded the trannie as well for no charge. They made a customer for life.
Audio gear should last decades. My Fisher Intergrated is still going strong as well as the Audio Classic 60 and DR 250 Servo. Yeah a resistor or two have gone bye bye due to blown tubes but that's it. This stuff is almost 20 years old and the Fischer almost 50 years old.
So for me lifetime within reason.

rollo

TONEPUB · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 May 2007, 05:04 am »

I still have a few pieces of gear that are about 30 years old, so I am hoping my current system
will go at least 30 or 35 years. That should put me to almost 80 and I probably won't be
able to hear much then anyway!!

bpape · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May 2007, 11:18 am »

I think there are a multitude of different expectations. If I pay $10k for an amp - yeah - I expect it to last 20 years even though the warranty may only be 5 or 3 or whatever. If I buy a SqeezeBox that gives me an excellent upgrade platform, tons of convenience and flexibility, and offers a resonable replacement for a multi-kilobuck CD player for $299 (plus whatever the upgrades are...) then there is a reasonable expectation that within the first few years there will likely be something go wrong. If they were charging me $995 instead and giving me a 3 year warranty, then my expectation would be that it would last considerably longer.

Bryan