[brynaus]

Thanks Tanchiro,

After the DAC has had 400 hours break-in and is fully stabilised, I will order the caps etc. from Nicholas and contact you directly - I will close my eyes, whisper a prayer and try to ignore the likely smell of searing flesh !!

[anubisgrau]

@jb

what are your thoughts on this:

http://www.vdac.co.uk/vdac4.html

25bit 210k upsampling

[JohnR]

In terms of energy content, a triangular wave does not approximate the energy in a sine wave as well as square wave does.

What on earth is this supposed to mean? 

I just ran into this train wreck. Does anyone other than me think that perhaps the little sidetrack by jb should be moved to another thread?

[tanchiro58]

JohnR,

You should add one more forum in AC for Pro DAC or Studio Pro. etc... To be honest it is good to learn from everyone' experiences or DIY's experiences but too much of theories of audio-engineering I have never interested.   

[jb]

What's the story with 128X (or 256X) oversampling - anything gained from this?

Let me ask you: What could possibly be gained by oversampling Redbook to delta-sigma? According to sampling theory, you can reduce the sample width by one bit for each doubling of the sample rate and not lose information. You have to oversample 128X when converting to delta-sigma in order to simply preserve the basic audio quality of 44.1K/16-bit CD audio and in the process you suffer the consequences of oversampling and get the dynamics of a 7-bit DAC.

For those of you in Rio Linda, a delta-sigma DAC steps one bit each sample period. With 128X oversampling, a delta-sigma DAC can slew through a maximum of 128 points (2^7) in the same time a 44.1k/16-bit DAC can slew through 65536 points (2^16).

256X delta-sigma is theoretically equivalent to 2X oversampled Redbook PCM. The audio industry loves delta-sigma because the chips are cheap. Audiophiles love delta-sigma because they believe everything the audio industry tells them.

what are your thoughts on this: 25bit 210k upsampling

Why do any of you care what I think about this or that DAC? Use your ears and brain and choose the DAC that suits you.

In terms of energy content, a triangular wave does not approximate the energy in a sine wave as well as square wave does.

What on earth is this supposed to mean? 

The energy content of a signal is the total area under the curve.
The technical ignorance on display in this forum is staggering. Doesn’t anyone know anything beyond what the advertisers tell you?

I just ran into this train wreck. Does anyone other than me think that perhaps the little sidetrack by jb should be moved to another thread?

First I was criticized for continuing my critique of the Altmann and LessLoss DACs in new thread. Now I am criticized for sidetracking this thread with my critique of asynchronous reclocking, as it applies to the Prometheus DAC, and graciously answering questions. I can’t win.

John, if you don’t like what I have to say, you have the power to move or delete my posts. Like the other audio forum operators, you like happy talk that promotes the audio industry, in general, and your sponsors, in particular. You certainly don’t want anyone pointing out the emperor has no clothes. I’ll make it easy for you by not posting here again.

[JohnR]

I’ll make it easy for you by not posting here again.

That will make it easier for me. Thank you.

[Dan Banquer]

I’ll make it easy for you by not posting here again.

That will make it easier for me. Thank you.

Heavy handed censorship is always easier than attempting to understand some of the technical issues involved, isn't it John. Just exactly what is so terrible about a technical discussion of DAC's?
  d.b.

[JohnR]

It's not the discussion, Dan, it's the sneering and insults. Just like you, in fact. People who are genuinely knowledgeable generally don't, in my experience, feel the need to insult others as a way to bolster their own authority or knowledge. I don't welcome it here, and absolutely, my life will be easier without it.

So I guess this is where we're going, Dan. I work hard to make this site work, you don't. I've asked you time and time and time again to either make a positive contribution, or stay away. Your cheap shot about censorship and the like... well, what can I say. My life would be easier if you weren't in it, too, Dan. So how about it?

[Dan Banquer]

It's not the discussion, Dan, it's the sneering and insults. Just like you, in fact. People who are genuinely knowledgeable generally don't, in my experience, feel the need to insult others as a way to bolster their own authority or knowledge. I don't welcome it here, and absolutely, my life will be easier without it.

So I guess this is where we're going, Dan. I work hard to make this site work, you don't. I've asked you time and time and time again to either make a positive contribution, or stay away. Your cheap shot about censorship and the like... well, what can I say. My life would be easier if you weren't in it, too, Dan. So how about it?

jb has presented technical issues about DAC's that are well known to those of us who are either involved or have been involved with DAC's. From what I have reviewed in this thread jb has made his case without being "snotty", unless of course you consider the presentation of well known technical issues to be "snotty'
Once again you have not addressed my question: Just what exactly is so terrible about a technical discussion of DAC's?
And BTW: I have also worked hard to bring some amount of technical education to this forum, and no I don't get paid for that.  I also work hard to write articles for Audioholics that hopefully inform readers of the technical issues that audiophiles face and the monetary reward for that is a check to Habitat for Humanity.
d.b.
 

[JohnR]

You have selective blindness, Dan. Here are a few quote I found in a few seconds of looking

The technical ignorance on display in this forum is staggering.

dealing with customers, especially wannabe audiophiles, would take all the fun out of it.

If all you golden ears think the Prometheus DAC is the best you have every heard. What can I say? Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy.

I'm grateful for his invitation to leave, as (didn't I already say this?) I've had a gut-ful of shit like this from people such as, well, you. I only wish you had kept to yours.

[Dan Banquer]

Well it certainly appears that you do not wish to answer my question. I can only conclude at this point that you view any technical discussion of DAC's to be of no service or interest to members of audio circle.

d.b.

[JohnR]

I never said there was anything terrible about a technical discussion of DACs, I asked if anyone else thought the discussion should be split out of this thread. I do find some of his explanations (what I read) a little odd.... and I have taught a basic class in Signal Theory so I'm not a complete ignoramous. I supposed I could have asked my question a little more tactfully, I guess the tone was set in my mind by the earlier statements he made. My bad 

Anyway Dan, I'm afraid the time has come. You made your intention to cause trouble clear from the beginning of AC, when you declined a circle because you thought that if you had one we wouldn't allow you to attack cable manufacturers. You've wasted plenty of Admin time of the years, and you're the only person who's ever had two time-outs, I believe. And your re-entry to the board after our last discussion about your positive contribution (or lack of) is to come out accusing me of censorship. We've been through a lot of changes this year, Dan, and they haven't been easy. I really have no energy to deal with nonsense from you. Please have your last retort now and then we will part ways. Thank you.

JohnR

[TheChairGuy]

Dan - the world is not full of engineers and technical types....and while any forum on audio or high fidelity may attract more than it's slice of life of engineers and the like, that doesn't change the general population's make-up.  Indeed, many of the things jb has cited is well over the head of the average music enthusiast.  Including me.

For that reason there is an area called The Lab...where folks like you (and 'jb') can congregate and get all hot and lathered up over 'scope results and the like. Which is where you normally participate at AC....not here in the enthusiast area called 'Multi-Channel'

The times when the techies enter a general enthusiast area...we (majority) non-technical types shouldn't be made to feel foolish for our lack of engineering skills.  Consistently by some, including you, we're scalded for shit that you take for granted.  If you can't participate nicely with ALL the others, then just hang with your fellow geeks in The Lab.

Better yet, as you've clearly worn our your welcome at AC after years of pounding the same insipid points, go hang out elsewhere on the net on sites for technical and DIY'ers only.  You must have some innate need to create strife and laud your technical merits over those who cannot grasp at it. And yet you continue at it, year after year, denigrating too many around you.

I'm not about to apologize for being a Marketing major or my choices in career to you or anyone else.  I'm here for the same reason as most...we enjoy re-producing music as it's heard live in our homes and hope to better approximate it over time.  Everyone hears that differently and approaches it with their own set of insights and rules.  For many, it's just morphed into a place where you can share laughs, stories, grief about life in general.  I, and we, don't want to be told we are 'wannabe audiophiles' because we lack technical prowess, or 'ignorant'.  That's just simply not nice, not fair to say and doesn't promote community at AudioCircle.

Your endorsement of such talk speaks volumes about how FUBAR'ed you really are.  Go away - you have promised as such, but seem to gravitate back each time.  It seems your need to denigrate and show some purported technical prowess is endless and incessant - go take care of that need to indulge in it somewhere else.

Go away, go away, go away - you are irritating and insulting and I and others are sick of hearing you. Who knows, you may be an allright guy outside of this forum...but the persona you take on here is consistently wanting for humanity, understanding and patience for the majority.  You are the CircleJerk personified. You've worn out your welcome so many times it's just annoying now. Ta-ta.

 

[audio-heaven]

I don’t think this thread would have degenerated into such unpleasantness if jb had expressed his technical criticisms in a different and more positive way, there is of course nothing wrong in sharing your opinions about any technical issues regarding DACs or anything else for that matter, however if it looks to others like they are mainly negative comments about the performance of the Promitheus DAC on a thread obviously started by people who have only just ordered it, or who already own one and are evidently enjoying their purchase your negative criticisms could be viewed by some as unwelcome.
As far as I know nobody likes a smart ass who comes up to you just after you’ve just bought something and says “that’s a load of crap I know of a much better one but I’m not going to tell you about it!” 
It would perhaps have been better to start a new thread about this issue rather than choosing an already established one started by people who like Nick’s product.
Jb said he believes he has a better solution in his own DIY DAC than any of  the current “in vogue” (as he put it) filtered non-os or up-sampling dacs commercially available, however he is unwilling to share his ‘less flawed’ design with any one else.

If jb really does have a superior DAC design then why not share it at somewhere like diyaudio.com? I fail to see why doing so would take the fun out of anything, sure you will get some criticism from people but if you’re willing to dish it out you must be willing to take some yourself.
Ultimately jb’s design would speak for itself with its vastly superior sound quality that crushes the competition.

BTW I don’t own a Promitheus DAC nor have I just ordered one

If ignorance is bliss as jb said then I’m really glad all you Prometheus owners are happy (edit) eeerm I didn't mean any Promitheus owner was ignorant BTW if so I must be too as I own one of nicks TVC's

[Bob in St. Louis]

Well Hell....I do believe our new friend jb could have been a wee bit more tactful in his presentation. I do believe this was the beginning of the end of this thread, a few peoples tempters, and possibly Dan B himself. I enjoy hanging here and learning form you guys, but it's a shame in out little niche hobby that the few of us that belong can't calm down a notch or two. A few things have been said by numerous individuals that either didn't need to be said at all, or in the very least, could have been said more gently/tackfully. I see tempers, ego's, and pissing contests. None of this is necessary.
Please to all: Think before you post.

Your Father taught you that....Didn't he?

Bob

[tanchiro58]

If this is a world of competition IMO you have gut to present your own good audio products to share with others (average people who know how to listen musics not really wanabe audiophiles) then I would welcome to give a try.

I am not affiliate to Promitheus Audio and just want to express my thought of owning TVC and now DAC which I already shared with my friends in the neighborhood and in this circle. They are appreciated to have a good share they have never found to be satisfied before like Promitheus TVC. And I think this is the purpose of Audio Circle.

[anubisgrau]

I’ll make it easy for you by not posting here again.

That will make it easier for me. Thank you.

Heavy handed censorship is always easier than attempting to understand some of the technical issues involved, isn't it John. Just exactly what is so terrible about a technical discussion of DAC's?
  d.b.

bad manners and a lack of social skills. one romy the cat is enough for the whole audio world, unless you believe that every segment (horns, DACs, SETs, wires) should have one.

[brynaus]

Has anyone else seen the movie "Marathon Man".  Just imagine Laurence Olivier leaning over you ... "Is it safe yet" ? 

[acd483]

I can say that on the board and in our PMs, I learned quite a bit from jb, and hope that he continues to contribute to the discussion. I agree, it's useless to interject in thread after thread about the issues associated with a given product without offering an alternative. I gave jb the opportunity to step up, get his DAC out there and listened to, for if he is that confident in his product, he should want to show it off. I think all of us potential consumers are fair enough to judge by our ears and if one DAC is better than the next, we'll promote it.

This industry is about innovation, not deception. If you've got a better product, build it, sell it, get it reviewed and take pride.

[tanchiro58]

This industry is about innovation, not deception. If you've got a better product, build it, sell it, get it reviewed and take pride.

Good point acd483. Exactly what I have had in mind. But in the real life, a few of people have a gut to show off their innovations especially in audio society.