Shure M97XE vs AudioTechnica AT-440ML

John Casler · « **on:** 15 May 2007, 01:09 am »

Shure M97XE vs AudioTechnica AT-440ML ?

Any preferences between these two cartridges on an SL1210 Technics Table?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 May 2007, 01:48 am »

Splurge for the extra 20-spot and get the (line stylus) AT. I've not heard of many compatibility issues with it on any deck thus far and it (the latest MLa version) garners raves regularly.

Not many rave about the (elliptical) 97xe...if fact, I have never heard of one wildly enthusiastic take on it.

Perhaps I never set it up right, but it's famous forebear, the V15 (the last one made) was one of the least-appealing cartridges I've ever bought (and it was no where near the cheapest, either).

WEEZ · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 May 2007, 02:15 am »

The AT 440MLa will extract more music from the grooves

. By comparison, the 97XE will sound veiled. (nice, but veiled).

WEEZ

cytocycle · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Jun 2007, 07:42 am »

Quote from: WEEZ on 15 May 2007, 02:15 am

The AT 440MLa will extract more music from the grooves . By comparison, the 97XE will sound veiled. (nice, but veiled).

WEEZ

"Veiled" is an understatement.. my friend bought his Technics 1200 with the Sure and then immediately started looking for a replacement cart... it was dead on top and bottom, the AT 4440MLa is much more open and immediate.

Spend the extra and get the AT!

richidoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Jun 2007, 12:15 pm »

I have the Shure on an old Technics SL-Q2. I hear the warmth and immediacy of vinyl, OK bass, good tracking, Shure needle brush for my dumpster dirty records, but I miss the sparkle and sizzle of CDs. I only have an old worn and abused POS AT cart to compare it to, so I guess now I now what I'm missing... I got it on sale for $60 before I got into audio.
Thanks
Rich

Edit: Bunch of reviews on Amazon about the AT.

Toka · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Jun 2007, 02:23 pm »

MLa all the way...

Wayner · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Jun 2007, 09:38 pm »

I own both. The Shure is a geat big bore. AT440MLa is way out of the Shure's league.....by a long shot. It has better soundstage, better tracking, better low, mid and high end. Sounds like music. The Shure makes me want to shut off the stereo and go watch TV.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Jun 2007, 11:35 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 6 Jun 2007, 09:38 pm

The Shure makes me want to shut off the stereo and go watch TV.
Wayner

THAT'S the most damning statement a guy could make about any cartridge - you must detest the Shure, Wayner

richidoo · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 12:01 am »

I have been thinking about swapping out the Shure all day. But I still have WEEZs Grado sermon couple days ago echoing in my head. So trying to decide if I want to make a run at a decent TT setup over a year's time (get a grado for future tt/pre upgrades) or just make it good enough to not suck too badly (get the AT and enjoy as best I can). I have a Bellari 12AX7 phonopre now with a crappy chinese tube, wall wart power supply that hums on the wall and through the amp. I have some nice NOS 12AX7 tubes for it, a mullard and telefunken (Fishers) but the power supply has to go. What's a grado gonna set me back?

Rich

gooberdude · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 12:34 am »

Lets try a comparison that's fair for cryin out loud!!!!

the 440MLa punch's way above its pricetag.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 01:26 am »

Quote from: richidoo on 7 Jun 2007, 12:01 am

I have been thinking about swapping out the Shure all day. But I still have WEEZs Grado sermon couple days ago echoing in my head. What's a grado gonna set me back?
Rich

Those Grado WEEZ-lings sure do haunt you, don't they?

The Green is $60 and a great starting point. According to Chief Engineer John Chiapas by phone with me awhile back - it's 90% of the music. The next 10% costs you a bunch more

I'm with WEEZ on the Grado's...most other cartridges sound paltry and anorexic in comparison (but they need the AVA Longhorn, and damped arm to sound juuuust right...and having exactly the right tracking force helps a bunch, too)

We may well be in the (ecstatic) minority, tho - one can't discount all the positive attention paid to the AT440MLa.

John

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 11:42 am »

Sorry, John.

That's how I feel about the Shure. It tries to play music from the grooves, but it just makes noise. It is truly very un-engaging and boring. I should have been suspicious of it when I bought it, the metal case it came in had to be very expensive to make, plus all of the do-dads. The record brush on the cartridge makes it behave over damped, even causing record skip. That feature is best not used at all.

W

WEEZ · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 12:13 pm »

So if Wayner and goober can pimp for the AT; TCG and me can pimp for the Grado's. That's two against two. We need a tie breaker.

Of course, if John Casler goes AT; and Rich goes Grado; we are still at a tie.....ha.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 01:49 pm »

Wayner,

Nuthin' to be sorry for - I thought the Shure V15MxVR (the last one made and a cut above the M97xe) was also un-engaging and boring. Perhaps it was a bad match for my (then) Thorens set-up, but it was just plain bad to listen to, overall.

I paid $210 for it at J & R Music on sale.....wasted money for me.

So - I know exactly what you mean, my man. Shure just wasn't my bag, either

Quote from: Wayner on 7 Jun 2007, 11:42 am

Sorry, John.

That's how I feel about the Shure. It tries to play music from the grooves, but it just makes noise. It is truly very un-engaging and boring. I should have been suspicious of it when I bought it, the metal case it came in had to be very expensive to make, plus all of the do-dads. The record brush on the cartridge makes it behave over damped, even causing record skip. That feature is best not used at all.

W

richidoo · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 02:45 pm »

Looked back at the Longhorn thread from last week, read Wayner's warning. If I'm gonna get into vinyl, I'm gonna wanna do it all the way, so I'll need to spend some money, as everything I have is not useable for high end. I would look for a used table with a AQ arm, etc. I'm hearing the Altmann DAC this weekend, supposed to be among best DACs available, that will go a long way to telling me if vinyl is in the future. Also gotta see what's still available for used vinyl these days, and the prices for jazz and classical records. It's a big decision to do it right. Listening room is on joists so vibration isolation is needed too.

I heard a well setup VPI Aries with Steelhead a couple months ago, and was shocked by the sound it made, even with amp and speakers not to my taste, but could hear the difference in comparison to A-B against Ayre latest CD player. I don't think any DAC/CD will make that sound, but I would rather have a nice boat than that particular vinyl rig. Can that level performance be had with less expensive parts?
Rich

lcrim · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 03:09 pm »

The sub $100 cartridges being recommended will never provide the level of performance you are seeking. It is possible to achieve that level for a reasonable outlay but the user needs to become fairly well acquainted with the medium. In my experience, vinyl playback is a lot like a relationship. For it to work well, a lot of effort is required. Digital playback is less laborious by far. The very fact that the record must be changed every 20-25 minutes is indicative of the labor needed.
I prefer the sound of vinyl to digital but have both because there is music that I enjoy that can only be found on CD and also there are times when I am too worn out to jump up every 20 minutes. You should be aware of the issues involved in vinyl playback, it isn't for everybody. No criticism intended just felt that this fact should be pointed out.

WEEZ · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 04:35 pm »

I will have to disagree 'slightly' with Icrim as far as reasonably priced cartridges are concerned. With carefull matching, a cartridge doesn't have to cost a fortune to reach high-end sound. (I DO agree that vinyl playback is not for everyone.... it does take involvement and a certain amount of dedication....)

It can be argued (and has) that the 'table itself is maybe more important than the cartridge...but that's another topic.

WEEZ

Wayner · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 09:58 pm »

I also agree with WEEZ. I have a $400 Sumiko Blue Point Special III that the AT440MLa beats in many performance areas. I do think many "big spenders" would be embarrased by how little (if any) improvement the high dollar table/cartridge combos didn't get them.

Let me stick my neck way out here. I really can't imagine vinyl playback getting much better than what I have currently set up. I do have a couple of tweak ideas, but the return will probably be minimal so I haven't done them yet.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jun 2007, 10:22 pm »

There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with vinyl, Wayner. Unless you control every process, and are expert at each one, from original recording to playback in your system - we're all chasing the same elusive goal that will never come to us. We can throw a lot of money at some aspect of vinyl (or digital) performance and never reach that perfect place anyhow.

Make one of those tweek ideas fluid damping on your Grado, will ya'?

Richidoo/John Casler - of the (now) 11 cartridges I own, 2 of the top 3 are the cheapest among them. The differences between any of the top three are so small - only the nuts that hang out on audio forums would likely care

They all make music nicely.

Try a Grado Green and a AT440MLa...the two together won't cost you but $150.00. You'll know after 25 hours on each you'd prefer

lcrim · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Jun 2007, 01:52 pm »

I thought about this overnight and decided to point out that the cartridges being recommended in this thread are high compliance MM's which is a format that seems to be the vogue in this group. They work well on turntables w/ low mass arms from a few generations back as well as MM phono sections that have less gain which were very popular some 20-25 years ago and are readily available used for attractive prices. This is a nice method for getting started and learning about vinyl playback and is also the way I got back into this.
However, without question this format has been superceded by the moving coil cartridge which generally tend to exhibit less compliance and lower outputs. They therefore require higher mass tonearms for better control as well as higher gain phono sections because of the lowered output. Generally speaking again, the choices of high compliance MM cartridges are fewer. Among the better ones has been the AT440 series. I have owned the first generation of this cartridge and after a while grew tired of its' brightness and MM's in general and moved on to LOMC's. Trying not to be guilty of stating opinion as fact, a popular predilection on audio boards, I much prefer the sound quality using LOMC's and higher gain phono sections finding it more alive and detailed.